Gaelic Gaelic

[The Moonster]

13 hours ago, invergowrie arab said:

Thats because it does. The only downside of duolingo is its not a grammar course.

Bh  and Mh = a v sound

Brother = bràthair (braahar)

My brother = mo bhràthair (vraahar)

Mother = Màthair (maahar)

My mother = mo mhàthair (vaahar)

Father = athair

My father = mo athair ( or m' athair which sounds exactly the same as màthair for mother to the untrained ear)

Adding an h is called lenition and lenition occurs in a huge amount of situations.

One of them would be after my, your, his

My brother = mo bhràthair

Your brother = do bhràthair

His brother = a bhràthair

Her brother = a bràthair (no lenition)

Your (plural) brother = ur bràthair (no lenition)

Our brother = ar bràthair (no lenition)

Their brother = am bràthair (no lenition)

Yeah, that'll be why I'm hearing it! 

13 hours ago, invergowrie arab said:

Its so common it becomes second nature. 

The ones most people pick up first are good morning, good afternoon, good night. Lenition occurs to the adjective after a feminine noun. So:

Madainn - morning - feminine 

Feasgar - afternoon/evening - masc

Oidhche - Night - feminine 

Math = Good

Madainn mhath (va) - good morning 

Feasgar math (ma) - good afternoon/evening

Oidhche mhath (va) - good night

 

I was wondering why it was madainn mhath and feasgar math, thank you, two extremely helpful posts! A couple of short questions here though, the pronunciation of "madainn" on Duolingo sounds like "ma-ding", is that right?

Also, earlier Kejan mentioned that you would use Tapadh leat if it was your friend you were speaking with, but Tapadh leibh seems to be used on Duolingo when discussing family/friends sometimes.

13 hours ago, Snobot said:

IA beat me to it in far greater detail. Dà (two) also lenites the following word - b becomes bh (v sound), p becomes ph (f sound) and m becomes mh (also v sound) after dà. Sh sounds like a soft h.

Also, when addressing someone (you’ll hear it in Duolingo), you’d put in the word  “a” and lenite if you can - Halò a Bhràthair, Mar sin leibh a Mhàthair, Tioraidh a Phiuthar, Slàinte a Sheanair, fàilte a Sheanmhair but Halò Athair because you can’t lenite a vowel and also try to say “a athair” it’s impossible.

The English derivation Hamish comes from this - from Seumas (James) - Halò a Sheumais  (hello a Hamish)

You’ll tune into it the more you listen. 
 

If you want to get into the grammar of it in parallel with Duolingo get the optimistically titled Book “Gaelic in 12 weeks”. Great grammar reference book, if a little dry, but explains all these things quite well.

Cheers to you, IA and Kejan for very helpful postings!

EDIT to add - I think my favourite word so far is "oidhche". Somecunts been at the wind up when inventing that, but I absolutely love it.

Edited December 6, 2019 by The Moonster

[invergowrie arab]

3 hours ago, The Moonster said:

Yeah, that'll be why I'm hearing it! 

I was wondering why it was madainn mhath and feasgar math, thank you, two extremely helpful posts! A couple of short questions here though, the pronunciation of "madainn" on Duolingo sounds like "ma-ding", is that right?

Also, earlier Kejan mentioned that you would use Tapadh leat if it was your friend you were speaking with, but Tapadh leibh seems to be used on Duolingo when discussing family/friends sometimes.

 

A d followed by a broad vowel (a o u) is a hard d almost a like a t. Madainn almost sounds like ma-tinn (emphasis in Gaelic is almost always on first syllable).

Leat = le thu - literally with you

Sibh is the plural or formal version of you.

In German this would be du/sie. In French tu/vous. In Spanish tu/usted. In Gaelic thu/sibh

Leibh = le+sibh - literally with you (plural or formal)

So if i was thanking my pal i would say tapadh leat. If i was thanking my granny, or the minister, a couple or a room full of people i would say tapadh leibh

Edited December 6, 2019 by invergowrie arab

[invergowrie arab]

32 minutes ago, MixuFixit said:

What's the difference between a-nochd and oidhche?

 

I want to start doing Gaelic by telling you what I'm cooking for dinner but not sure which is right.

 

Anyway a-nochd (or seo oichdhe?) tha mart-fheòil agus buntàta agus ìm

 

 

 

 

A-nochd would be tonight.  If i was saying i was doing something tonight or asking where someone was tonight i would say a-nochd.

Tha mi a' dèanamh isbeanan airson mo dhìnnear a-nochd. Im doing sausages for my dinner tonight (you could also use "an fheasgar seo" for "this evening".

Oidhche is night. I would use that more for oidhche mhath - good night or  'S e oidhche àlainn a th' innte - it is a beautiful night.

To confuse things further last night would be "a-raoir".

 

[mathematics]

On 05/12/2019 at 20:00, invergowrie arab said:

 

Math = Good

 

Agreed, Americanism aside.

[Kejan]

Tomorrow (well, now I suppose) is Latha na Sàbaid  (Day of the Sabbath)or Didòmhnaich, if you prefer. 

I'm not religious at all, but if I talking about a Sunday, I intermingle them and say LNS more than I thought I would.

Another day I tended and still occasionally have to think about is Diardaoin/Dihaoine  -Thursday/Friday. If I was slightly baffled and not 100% sure often end up saying the first four days of the week to remember.

I've heard from some Nordic people than they tended to mix Tuesday and Thursday up when learning English.

 

Edited December 8, 2019 by Kejan

[invergowrie arab]

It took me ages to learn the days of the week as i had nothing to relate them to. Whereas i suppose if you learned french at school it would be easier

Monday - DiLuain - Lundi

Tuesday - DiMàirt - Mardi

Wednesday - DiCiadain - Mercredi

Thursday - DiArdaoin - Jeudi

Friday- DiHaoine - Vendredi

Saturday - DiSathairne - Sanedi

Sunday - DiDòmhnaich - Dimanche

I tend to say Là na Sàbaid as its what they say on the news.

[invergowrie arab]

35 minutes ago, MixuFixit said:

 

 

 

 

 

Would this be in terrible phonetics:

 

Di Looan

 

Di Maart

 

Di Keedan

 

Di Ardoon

 

Di Hoon

 

Di Shaharn

 

Di Dohnach/Laa na Shaabad

 

 

Thats pretty close.

For "rt" and "rd" i would give it an "rsht" but folk from Lewis wouldnt. 

No h in Sàbaid - saabadj rhyming (almost) with cabbage 

[invergowrie arab]

4 minutes ago, MixuFixit said:

Why is sathairne a sh and sàbaid is a hard s? Is it because of what follows the first a?

DiSathairne isnt either. Its a hard S too.

 

[Kejan]

6 hours ago, MixuFixit said:

 

 

 

 

 

Would this be in terrible phonetics:

 

Di Looan

 

Di Maart

 

Di Keedan

 

Di Ardoon

 

Di Hoon

 

Di Shaharn

 

Di Dohnach/Laa na Shaabad

 

 

Aye, that's pretty good.  Perfectly understandble too.

Each to their own as well with their pronunciation - as long as its close enough/understood. Nothing more soul destroying of trying to learn a language and every second word is corrected and often it'll be because they haven't heard what your ''native'' accent sounds like talking a different language.

I go with

Jeh-luh-an ; Jeh-maarsht ; Jeh-kay-deen ; Jeh-doon ; Jeh-hoonya ; Jeh-sah-hurn-ye ; Jeh-don-eich/ Lah-nah-sah-behch (bitch almost

 

 

[invergowrie arab]

You get kickback from native speakers about SMOG (Sabhal Mòr Os***** Gaelic) as they dont like seeing Gaelic standardised.

They also dont like "fake" Gaelic words eg air loidhne when all Gaels will say online.

That said i like there are new words. If a language stands still it will just become a Gaelic/English creole.

The great thing about Duolinguo is you will hear a real mix of dialects including non-native learners and Canadian speakers.

I know a couple of guys who have learnt only Perthshire Gaelic which is a bit like learning English but only learning to speak like someone from Cornwall but its fun to listen to.

[bishopburn boy]

 

Just sweary words , really

 

 

Edited December 8, 2019 by bishopburn boy

[Guest JTS98]

14 hours ago, MixuFixit said:

I actually quite like that there is a lot if variability in pronunciation in Gaelic as it makes me less petrified of getting it wrong. I found Poles really bad for this, you'd say the thing 5 times to a blank stare then the penny would drop and they'd say what you said back to you. To their ears totally different, to mine the same damn word!

Interesting read this thread.

I've never learned Gaelic, but I can speak Polish having lived there for 5 years in my twenties. I thought there wasprobably a similarity in the approach of Gaelic and Polish speakers in that it's just not that common for them to hear non-native speakers using their language.

As English speakers we are all used to people from all over the world using English and hearing people all the time using English to varying standards. If someone says to an English speaker "I go to shopping yesterday", nobody will be confused or bothered. It sounds odd, but you understand it and get on with your day. Poles would screw up their faces and say "COOOOOO?" at such mistakes.

Same with word-stress mistakes. An Italian mis-placing the stress on 'impossible' will still be understand. But Poles would stare blankly at a mis-stressed utterance.

They just don't hear foreigners using their language so much so are less tolerant of inaccuracy. I'd imagined Gaelic speakers have a similar thing, but apparently not due to the variety. I didn't know that.

 

13 hours ago, invergowrie arab said:

You get kickback from native speakers about SMOG (Sabhal Mòr Os***** Gaelic) as they dont like seeing Gaelic standardised.

They also dont like "fake" Gaelic words eg air loidhne when all Gaels will say online.

I suppose this is like English speakers who object to new 21st century phrases or to use of 'poor' grammar. Every language in the world is changing every day and people just need to accept it.

Enjoyed reading this thread.

Edited December 9, 2019 by JTS98

[Kejan]

On 08/12/2019 at 17:50, invergowrie arab said:

You get kickback from native speakers about SMOG (Sabhal Mòr Os***** Gaelic) as they dont like seeing Gaelic standardised.

They also dont like "fake" Gaelic words eg air loidhne when all Gaels will say online.

That said i like there are new words. If a language stands still it will just become a Gaelic/English creole.

The great thing about Duolinguo is you will hear a real mix of dialects including non-native learners and Canadian speakers.

I know a couple of guys who have learnt only Perthshire Gaelic which is a bit like learning English but only learning to speak like someone from Cornwall but its fun to listen to

Aye, I can see their point but still, if it wasn't for SMO Gàidhlig or luchd-ionnsachaidh Gàidhlig , what position would it be in. 

There's finally a wee bity o' momentum finally behind the language. It's a huge battle and lots of mis management/Bord na G etc but people learning at school is up 64% from 2010 and just like I don't like hearing us lose some Scots words , it's better the language survives rather than dies out through stubbornness. 

Some Gaels are their own worst enemy, my grandfather moves to Glasgow for work (from Barra/Jura) yet didn't think his kids would need it on the "tir mor".

I do the helicopter pad thing as I've heard it described, using English words if I forget/don't know the word. It keeps the conversation going if not diluted a bit, until I learn it for next time. 

A thidsear, ciamar a chanas thu 'helicopter pad' sa' Ghàidhlig?

 

[invergowrie arab]

Ciamar a chanas tu helicopter sa Bheurla? 'S e facal Greugach a th' ann.

One tip i had was to speak "achadh" Gaelic if you dont know a verb.

Tha mi a' recylachadh na pàipearan.

Tha am pleana a' landachadh aig a' phort adhair a-nis.

Apprently its perfectly OK and keeps you in your Gaelic head instead of falling back on English.

[Kejan]

2 hours ago, invergowrie arab said:

Ciamar a chanas tu helicopter sa Bheurla? 'S e facal Greugach a th' ann.

One tip i had was to speak "achadh" Gaelic if you dont know a verb.

Tha mi a' recylachadh na pàipearan.

Tha am pleana a' landachadh aig a' phort adhair a-nis.

Apprently its perfectly OK and keeps you in your Gaelic head instead of falling back on English.

Aigh, aigh that's a good method. 

Planaichean surely comes from that. 

[DiegoDiego]

I suppose this is like English speakers who object to new 21st century phrases or to use of 'poor' grammar. Every language in the world is changing every day and people just need to accept it.
Enjoyed reading this thread.

I don't think just accepting it is the right attitude. Poor English is a reflection of the state of the education system, so being okay with it is being okay with a country that can't even teach children their mother tongue. It's not exactly a high bar to set and we're still managing to miss it.

Every language is changing but that is different from mis-use. Most changes are of new vocabulary. Any grammatical changes tend to reflect culture, such as losing formal forms of address. What they don't do is start chucking apostrophes in every fifth plural and mixing up homonyms. Those are errors, not a language evolving.

[Robin.Hood]

I don't think just accepting it is the right attitude. Poor English is a reflection of the state of the education system, so being okay with it is being okay with a country that can't even teach children their mother tongue. It's not exactly a high bar to set and we're still managing to miss it.

Every language is changing but that is different from mis-use. Most changes are of new vocabulary. Any grammatical changes tend to reflect culture, such as losing formal forms of address. What they don't do is start chucking apostrophes in every fifth plural and mixing up homonyms. Those are errors, not a language evolving.

Dingies

[Guest JTS98]

16 minutes ago, DiegoDiego said:

I don't think just accepting it is the right attitude. Poor English is a reflection of the state of the education system, so being okay with it is being okay with a country that can't even teach children their mother tongue. It's not exactly a high bar to set and we're still managing to miss it.

Every language is changing but that is different from mis-use. Most changes are of new vocabulary. Any grammatical changes tend to reflect culture, such as losing formal forms of address. What they don't do is start chucking apostrophes in every fifth plural and mixing up homonyms. Those are errors, not a language evolving.

Pretty much every society ever has 'missed it' and that's one of the reasons that languages are the way they are.

To take on your example, apostrophes will eventually disappear in English. Plenty of languages manage fine without them and the bare fact is that nobody is confused by a sentence like "Im going to Daves house" or "I need to buy some apple's". They're not essential for communication and as a result they'll eventually die out.

Same goes for third person 's'. It's unnecessary and it's quite hard for foreigners to learn and produces lots of L2 English speaker mistakes. All kinds of studies have shown that. It'll die.

There are lots of examples of things we say in modern English that would be decried by educated people from the past. Think of the now acceptable use of "If I was you, ...". 

But I think the best way to sum it up as that 'correct' use of a language is anything a native speaker of that language would naturally produce. To call certain things 'bad' is usually just an example of regional or class bias.

What native speakers produce is influenced by nearby languages, but non-natives learning and using the language and changing it to suit them. That's the case for all languages.

For example, "He done well today". I understand it. You understand. It's fine. "I ain't no ho!". You understand it. "My mum play tennis". You understand it. A native English-speaker from Sri Lanka might say something like "Pen no have". You understand it.

Don't want to drag the thread off-topic, but I think all languages share the above-mentioned resistance to change. It's utterly futile. Change is constant. Grammar change. Spelling change. Vocabulary change.

Edited December 10, 2019 by JTS98

[DiegoDiego]

I don't have a problem with he done well, it's dialect and I'm not of the opinion that we should stamp out dialects. If folk wanted to speak like that around my office I'd have no problem, but if they wrote it in a press release I'd have a different view.

Whose car is it though, Jamie Adams' or Adam Barton's?

Poor grammar is just one part of the problem though. Some of the posts on here are a struggle to read because of bad punctuation. It's all very well saying that we can understand what they mean but it isn't effective communication and that's the entire point of language.

[invergowrie arab]

When im teaching Gaelic what i find most challenging is i dont really know English grammar rules or terms.

I have just really picked up engish as i have gone along.

So i had no idea what "the definite article" was, i have to stop and consciously think what an adjective is and what a verb is. I have no idea what conjugation means.

I have learned more English grammar teaching Gaelic than 13 years of formal education