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FairWeatherFan

Northern interest in a Non-League Scottish Cup/SFA Trophy?

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When the Qualifying Cups came to an end due to automatic entry into the Scottish Cup, they saw a rebrand into North & South Region Challenge Cups. My understanding is that the North version came to an end after 2 years as it was essentially a version of their own competitions and they were expanding back to 18 teams eating up fixture dates.

With all the additions happening in the South, would there be any interest in the North to set up a National competition?

Or would the Highland clubs be happy with what they have, not worry about additional fixtures and enjoy the early rounds of the big Scottish Cup as their chance to mix with other clubs outwith their region?

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One of the sticking points for integrating the SJFA (in particular the West Region) seems to be for some, the loss of the Junior Cup, and I can see why such clubs may be keen for this competition to continue.

Although I think there's some merit in the idea of a national non-league cup competition in Scotland, my feeling is that it's probably not something Highland League clubs would be particularly interested in.

As well as the league, there is already the Scottish Cup, which is a priority for most clubs. The League Cup, North of Scotland and Aberdeenshire Cups (and Shield) are keenly contested. The top clubs also compete in the SPFL League and Challenge Cups.

I wonder if such a national competition is desired, then maybe it should start at Level 6, rather than 5.

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On 19/05/2018 at 08:32, Jimmy Shaker said:

We really don’t got the time for this.

The boys up north are as insular as the Ayrshire lot when it comes to integration really.  If at some point in the future the SFA did bring in a national NL cup (not the Junior Cup) I'd not be entirely convinced any HL sides would want to enter.

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13 hours ago, Burnie_man said:

The boys up north are as insular as the Ayrshire lot when it comes to integration really.  If at some point in the future the SFA did bring in a national NL cup (not the Junior Cup) I'd not be entirely convinced any HL sides would want to enter.

Think I'm right in saying that Cove Rangers this year will take part in the League Cup, Scottish Cup, Challenge Cup, Highland League Cup and the Aberdeenshire Cup.

Enough Cups already.

Edited by welshbairn

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5 minutes ago, welshbairn said:

Think I'm right in saying that Cove Rangers this year will take part in the League Cup, Scottish Cup, Challenge Cup, Highland League Cup and the Aberdeenshire Cup.

Enough Cups already.

That's just one club.   

In the Junior Cup, those clubs in the WH Scottish Cup receive byes.  Cove Rangers (and all HL and LL clubs) could receive byes to a latter round just like Premiership and Championship clubs receive byes in the WH Scottish Cup, it's not an insurmountable problem.

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8 hours ago, Burnie_man said:

That's just one club.   

In the Junior Cup, those clubs in the WH Scottish Cup receive byes.  Cove Rangers (and all HL and LL clubs) could receive byes to a latter round just like Premiership and Championship clubs receive byes in the WH Scottish Cup, it's not an insurmountable problem.

Think if the SFA were to financially support it they could get the HL/Northern clubs signed up. They had the Qualifying Cup all those years and carried on with the rebranded version of that until the funding was dropped.

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Realistically, clubs aren't going to buy into this unless there's some positive outcome for them. Basically, there's got to be prize money. I think it's a non-starter if it's like the Junior Cup where it costs teams to compete. There's not the (forgive me...) tradition of a national non-league trophy up North; it's historically been the Qualifying and Scottish Cups that have been the priorities, alongside the local FA cups in the Highlands and Aberdeenshire.

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10 hours ago, welshbairn said:

Think I'm right in saying that Cove Rangers this year will take part in the League Cup, Scottish Cup, Challenge Cup, Highland League Cup and the Aberdeenshire Cup.

Enough Cups already.

And the Aberdeenshire Shield...

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30 minutes ago, Cyclizine said:

And the Aberdeenshire Shield...

Do they not put the youth squad in that? I get confused about some of them. I really don't see the attraction for HL teams playing no mark Junior teams for low gate money and probably getting pumped. It was hard enough to complete the fixtures in time this year without adding another Cup competition that nobody would care about.

Edited by welshbairn

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The boys up north are as insular as the Ayrshire lot when it comes to integration really.  If at some point in the future the SFA did bring in a national NL cup (not the Junior Cup) I'd not be entirely convinced any HL sides would want to enter.


Give us a good reason for entering.

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On ‎17‎/‎05‎/‎2018 at 18:04, FairWeatherFan said:

When the Qualifying Cups came to an end due to automatic entry into the Scottish Cup, they saw a rebrand into North & South Region Challenge Cups. My understanding is that the North version came to an end after 2 years as it was essentially a version of their own competitions and they were expanding back to 18 teams eating up fixture dates.

With all the additions happening in the South, would there be any interest in the North to set up a National competition?

Or would the Highland clubs be happy with what they have, not worry about additional fixtures and enjoy the early rounds of the big Scottish Cup as their chance to mix with other clubs outwith their region?

The shfl have enough issues with cups causing fixture congestion

so yes,im sure they'll love it.they can blame the weather

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On ‎20‎/‎05‎/‎2018 at 22:45, Burnie_man said:

The boys up north are as insular as the Ayrshire lot when it comes to integration really.  If at some point in the future the SFA did bring in a national NL cup (not the Junior Cup) I'd not be entirely convinced any HL sides would want to enter.

Perhaps, but I can imagine a lot of 'southern' teams not being so enamoured if they were drawn away at Brora or Wick for example.

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39 minutes ago, highlandcowden said:

The shfl have enough issues with cups causing fixture congestion

so yes,im sure they'll love it.they can blame the weather

I think this is probably the case regardless of geography, level, age group etc. Highland league teams seem to struggle to get the fixtures in but the same is true for the local amateur and youth teams I know. Leagues and associations generally seem to have enough competitions already.

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22 hours ago, Burnie_man said:

That's just one club.   

In the Junior Cup, those clubs in the WH Scottish Cup receive byes.  Cove Rangers (and all HL and LL clubs) could receive byes to a latter round just like Premiership and Championship clubs receive byes in the WH Scottish Cup, it's not an insurmountable problem.

The Junior cup byes are a help but shouldn't be overplayed.

The Junior membership for the SJC last season was 157 clubs and for a cup competition it needs to be 128 teams for Round 2  (128-64-32-16-8-4-2).

The 1st round had only 29 games featuring 58 teams to reduce the draw to the right amount and the Senior cup entrants were in the 99 byes in the 1st Round.

Even without the guarantee they had an almost 2 in 3 shot of missing the 1st round

 

The entr

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4 minutes ago, MEADOWXI said:

The Junior cup byes are a help but shouldn't be overplayed.

The Junior membership for the SJC last season was 157 clubs and for a cup competition it needs to be 128 teams for Round 2  (128-64-32-16-8-4-2).

The 1st round had only 29 games featuring 58 teams to reduce the draw to the right amount and the Senior cup entrants were in the 99 byes in the 1st Round.

Even without the guarantee they had an almost 2 in 3 shot of missing the 1st round

 

The entr

 

There are umpteen ways of organising a national non-league Cup, I'm just pointing out that no problem is insurmountable. If the Juniors and Amateurs can organise one, I'm sure it's not beyond the capabilities of the SFA.

I do agree though with the point that it needs to come with a decent package of sponsor money where clubs are at least not left out of pocket by competing, unlike the Junior Cup in some cases.  Perhaps some form of tie-in with sponsorship of the Scottish Cup.

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Hard to see the justification for this from a financial perspective. The cost of (say) Dalbeattie running a bus oop north to play in front of what will probably be a sub 100 crowd doesn’t seem to me to be worth it.

I can’t see any sponsorship deal changing that. The Junior Cup is quite a big deal but I don’t think there’s much cash involved.

Edited by Hampden Diehard

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1 hour ago, Burnie_man said:

There are umpteen ways of organising a national non-league Cup, I'm just pointing out that no problem is insurmountable. If the Juniors and Amateurs can organise one, I'm sure it's not beyond the capabilities of the SFA.

I do agree though with the point that it needs to come with a decent package of sponsor money where clubs are at least not left out of pocket by competing, unlike the Junior Cup in some cases.  Perhaps some form of tie-in with sponsorship of the Scottish Cup.

No problem is insurmountable, and the national non-league cup run on Fitba North has generated interest (despite being almost always won by ERJFA sides), but you'd do very well to get anyone in the north to take any interest in a real version of this. Even the cups we play for generate little interest. The Aberdeenshire Shield is just a do-over of the Aberdeenshire Cup and is usually the first mentioned when it comes to thinning out the fixture list. The North Cup is a shadow of it's former self and has no sponsor. There's an Inverness Cup but the last edition played has remained unfinished for years.  The Highland League Cup remains the one cup teams want to win but it too isn't what it was and the final is usually hemmed in amongst league fixtures. 

If the clubs aren't going to earn out of it, it's a waste of time. 

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28 minutes ago, Hampden Diehard said:

Hard to see the justification for this from a financial perspective. The cost of (say) Dalbeattie running a bus oop north to play in front of what will probably be a sub 100 crowd doesn’t seem to me to be worth it.

I can’t see any sponsorship deal changing that. The Junior Cup is quite a big deal but I don’t think there’s much cash involved.

Depends how it is organised, would make sense to run it regionally until the latter stages.

As I said, if the Juniors and Amateurs can manage national comps then I'm sure it can easily be done.  It's overcoming the scepticism of senior non-league clubs who have never had this sort of thing before.  It needs does however need decent sponsorship where there are rewards in the latter rounds and no club loses money.

For all its faults, the Junior Cup is a competition that a great many clubs and fans look forward to. Hence why it is also televised.

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What all of the Junior Cup is televised? More than the final? 

I'm sure at least one North Region club recently didn't even bother with the Junior Cup, such was the waste of time in entering.

Edited by Jimmy Shaker

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