Dundee United 2018/2019

[Granny Danger]

12 minutes ago, mishtergrolsch said:

I feel the banter period isnt finished yet.

We've still to be papped out of the playoffs this season and have the managerial merry-go-round, the appointment of John Hughes and the signing of a random ex player that will lead to some fans combusting out of sheer rage all over the internet.

If the ex player is Emil Lyng put me down for combustion.

 

[Sarto Mutiny]

For us to be a true banter era club we would need to lose a playoff final to Dundee,  Luckily for fans of schadenfreude, this is almost certain to happen.

[captainkev]

9 hours ago, mishtergrolsch said:

I feel the banter period isnt finished yet.

We've still to be papped out of the playoffs this season

 

7 hours ago, Sarto Mutiny said:

For us to be a true banter era club we would need to lose a playoff final to Dundee,  Luckily for fans of schadenfreude, this is almost certain to happen.

Tbf a play-off humiliation at the hands of Dundee would probably be enough to make me retrospectively view the past 3 seasons as also part of our banter years, as they'll have led up to another instance of us making ourselves complete laughing stocks in Scottish football.

On another note, in the past week or so I've been thinking that while Neilson is getting deserved criticism in the wake of our performances since the January window splurge, our goal scoring problems in the past month or so is hardly a ringing endorsement of our strikers coach's work either. 

I understand it can sometimes take time for coaching ideas and methods to bed in or develop; plus McCulloch did only arrive in late January. It's not like we were scoring barrel loads for the majority of this season either in fairness.

Still, since McCulloch's come in the goals have gradually dried up to the point that - the past 2 or 3 games particularly - we're almost counting on getting penalties to have a chance of taking anything from matches. I think we had 9 corners on Saturday against the team that were bottom of the league at kick off, yet couldn't profit from any of them.

Perhaps I'm being a bit unreasonable here, but is anyone else a little bemused/concerned on this front?

Edited March 11, 2019 by captainkev

[ArabianKnight]

6 minutes ago, captainkev said:

 

Tbf a play-off humiliation at the hands of Dundee would probably be enough to make me retrospectively view the past 3 seasons as also part of our banter years, as they'll have led up to another instance of us making ourselves complete laughing stocks in Scottish football.

On another note, in the past week or so I've been thinking that while Neilson is getting deserved criticism in the wake of our performances since the January window splurge, our goal scoring problems in the past month or so is hardly a ringing endorsement of our strikers coach's work either. 

I understand it can sometimes take time for coaching ideas and methods to bed in or develop; plus McCulloch did only arrive in late January. It's not like we were scoring barrel loads for the majority of this season either in fairness.

Still, since McCulloch's come in the goals have gradually dried up to the point that - the past 2 or 3 games particularly - we're almost counting on getting penalties to have a chance of taking anything from matches. I think we had 9 corners on Saturday against the team that were bottom of the league at kick off, yet couldn't profit from any of them.

Perhaps I'm being a bit unteasonable here, but is anyone else a little bemused/concerned on this front?

Overall the coaching seems to have went sideways. 

Doesn't seem to be a coherent game plan at all so maybe whatever the players are being asked to do isn't very clear. 

[Granny Danger]

Best way to score goals is to play a formation conducive to this and utilise a striker like Clark as a striker.

 

[mishtergrolsch]

2 hours ago, captainkev said:

 

Tbf a play-off humiliation at the hands of Dundee would probably be enough to make me retrospectively view the past 3 seasons as also part of our banter years, as they'll have led up to another instance of us making ourselves complete laughing stocks in Scottish football.

On another note, in the past week or so I've been thinking that while Neilson is getting deserved criticism in the wake of our performances since the January window splurge, our goal scoring problems in the past month or so is hardly a ringing endorsement of our strikers coach's work either. 

I understand it can sometimes take time for coaching ideas and methods to bed in or develop; plus McCulloch did only arrive in late January. It's not like we were scoring barrel loads for the majority of this season either in fairness.

Still, since McCulloch's come in the goals have gradually dried up to the point that - the past 2 or 3 games particularly - we're almost counting on getting penalties to have a chance of taking anything from matches. I think we had 9 corners on Saturday against the team that were bottom of the league at kick off, yet couldn't profit from any of them.

Perhaps I'm being a bit unteasonable here, but is anyone else a little bemused/concerned on this front?

You can have the 5 best striker coaches on planet Earth working full time exclusively with Safranko and Clark but if we hoof the ball 25 yards above their heads or pass the ball about the defence it wont make a difference. Also we only play one striker so thats making things even harder. 

 

Our problem is mostly all in the tactics. 

[Dundee Hibernian]

An issue at the club right now is that behind the scenes, the structure is being vastly altered.

I've a feeling Tony Ashgar is the main organiser behind the changes, not Mal Brannigan, given some of the new faces are connected to the ex-policeman.

I wonder if, given the adaptations such as Goldie, Forrest and McCulloch being Asghar choices, Robbie Neilson is feeling out on a limb at the moment.

[arab_joe]

20 hours ago, mishtergrolsch said:

I agree with the idea that a sacking club is not a great thing however i'd argue that the manager hasn't shown enough himself to be given that time.

We kept McKinnon on too long. He should have been punted after the Hamilton playoff.

We kept Laszlo too long. He should have been punted at the end of the first season he was here. And should never have been given such a long contract.

We'll be repeating the same mistake if we keep Robbie on if he dosent improve his performances. Hes rigidly stuck to a formation that isnt working and its horrible to watch.

He's only had 19 league games... I don't think that is long enough to show what he is capable of.  Bear in mind that we sit second in the league - what exactly did you expect him to achieve in half a season?

He needs to be given time to turn the club around on the park, just as the board need to be given time to get things sorted off it.  Nothing happens overnight.

And, although you may well be right in relation to McKinnon and Laszlo, if we are looking to change managers yet again (for what would be our 14th manager of the century - we are catching up on Real Madrid) then we will have all of the same issues (and more) that we do every time that we are looking to change managers (see this thread from September/October 2018)... 

[Granny Danger]

35 minutes ago, arab_joe said:

He's only had 19 league games... I don't think that is long enough to show what he is capable of.  Bear in mind that we sit second in the league - what exactly did you expect him to achieve in half a season?

He needs to be given time to turn the club around on the park, just as the board need to be given time to get things sorted off it.  Nothing happens overnight.

And, although you may well be right in relation to McKinnon and Laszlo, if we are looking to change managers yet again (for what would be our 14th manager of the century - we are catching up on Real Madrid) then we will have all of the same issues (and more) that we do every time that we are looking to change managers (see this thread from September/October 2018)... 

How many games does a manager need to realise his formation is not working and that he needs to change it?  Personally I think it’s less that 19.

It has taken other managers half a dozen games to work out the weaknesses in our formation and to set their teams up in a way that counteracts us.  However we don’t respond to their formation or tactics, we just keep doing the same thing for 90 minutes.

The last 20 minutes at Firhill is the first time we have responded positively to an opposition team’s style of play and we almost got a result from it.

[colliedug]

How many games does a manager need to realise his formation is not working and that he needs to change it?  Personally I think it’s less that 19.
It has taken other managers half a dozen games to work out the weaknesses in our formation and to set their teams up in a way that counteracts us.  However we don’t respond to their formation or tactics, we just keep doing the same thing for 90 minutes.
The last 20 minutes at Firhill is the first time we have responded positively to an opposition team’s style of play and we almost got a result from it.

But still got beat haha

[arab_joe]

1 hour ago, Granny Danger said:

How many games does a manager need to realise his formation is not working and that he needs to change it?  Personally I think it’s less that 19.

A huge chunk of the playing squad (according to Wikipedia, 11 of 27) arrived during the course of the January transfer window. 

So Neilson has, essentially, had about two months to: (i) get the players in (and fit, given that many of them had not been playing much this season); (ii) get the duds from the existing squad out; (iii) gel the new signings with the rest of the existing squad (and I cannot imagine any of those existing players being terribly comfortable during January. given that so many of their peers were being binned...); (iv) figure out the best line-up/formation of this new team; and (v) try to win the half dozen games we have had in that period.

I think we are being quite unreasonable if we judge him this soon.

[Bairnardo]

FWIW yous will definitely go up next season IMO. Whoever gets relegated will be shite. For the first time in a while there will be little obvious obstacle to it I think. Like when Hibs went up. No way were they failing that season.

[Accent-Unknown]

23 hours ago, Bairnardo said:

At what point do you lot enter an official banter period? Has it happened already? How ling might it last?

These are all questions that you guys are better placed to answer than the rest of us.

Thoughts?

We've been in the banter era for a long time now. The Armstrong and GMS sales are what started it with Mario Bilate fighting Dundee fans in nightclubs being the prologue.

[Granny Danger]

49 minutes ago, arab_joe said:

A huge chunk of the playing squad (according to Wikipedia, 11 of 27) arrived during the course of the January transfer window. 

So Neilson has, essentially, had about two months to: (i) get the players in (and fit, given that many of them had not been playing much this season); (ii) get the duds from the existing squad out; (iii) gel the new signings with the rest of the existing squad (and I cannot imagine any of those existing players being terribly comfortable during January. given that so many of their peers were being binned...); (iv) figure out the best line-up/formation of this new team; and (v) try to win the half dozen games we have had in that period.

I think we are being quite unreasonable if we judge him this soon.

Let’s face it we are not going to agree.  

I think that by now Neilson should know that his formation is not working, you disagree.

 

[Dundee Hibernian]

1 hour ago, arab_joe said:

(iii) gel the new signings with the rest of the existing squad (and I cannot imagine any of those existing players being terribly comfortable during January. given that so many of their peers were being binned...

This is where Neilson may be as well: is he comfortable with the new backroom boys who have come in? Is he at ease with Asghar being imposed above him?

 

It's an unsettling time presently within the club.

[captainkev]

1 hour ago, Accent-Unknown said:

We've been in the banter era for a long time now. The Armstrong and GMS sales are what started it with Mario Bilate fighting Dundee fans in nightclubs being the prologue.

Very much entering into well trodden territory here, but I still argue selling GMS on deadline day alone wouldn't have been a terrible decision. Sure we'd all have been a bit disgruntled about losing him to our future cup final opponents, but he was going to them eventually. Once the summer window shut he looked completely uninterested, with the only exception of the derby at Dens which was probably more in reaction to the amount of stick the Dees typically used to give him. The difference in his performances once the transfer window reopened was like night and day. I highly doubt he would have turned up in the final had we kept him given how desperate he was to ingratiate himself with the Celtic hordes when he did go. Getting money for him would have been a disappointing but pragmatic decision. We'd likely have coped enough to avoid the toxic atmosphere that ultimately developed at Tannadice after both were sold.

Armstrong on his day was always the more effective player and had been gradually getting back into top form in his last couple of months with us. He and Ciftci were combining really well in December particularly, and we suffered for breaking that up. Also judging by his antics in the season's second half, Ciftci's nose was put out of joint by not getting to go with the pair of them in January. Had only GMS gone it might not have been such an issue.

Then again it's hard to ever reliably guess how Ciftci will behave, mad numpty that he is.

[mishtergrolsch]

14 hours ago, arab_joe said:

He's only had 19 league games... I don't think that is long enough to show what he is capable of.  Bear in mind that we sit second in the league - what exactly did you expect him to achieve in half a season?

He needs to be given time to turn the club around on the park, just as the board need to be given time to get things sorted off it.  Nothing happens overnight.

And, although you may well be right in relation to McKinnon and Laszlo, if we are looking to change managers yet again (for what would be our 14th manager of the century - we are catching up on Real Madrid) then we will have all of the same issues (and more) that we do every time that we are looking to change managers (see this thread from September/October 2018)... 

After half a dozen games the manager should know, at the very least, that something isnt working and should be changing things. By 19 id expect to see better performances than what we are witnessing. Like i said, winning ugly would be great. Playing better stuff and not quite putting wins together would still be good progress for me.

We are getting neither. Its desperate Laszlo stuff.

Simply put, hes not showing anything to suggest he shouldbe here next season.

Remember, its not just 19 games, its every day in training he sees this lot. He picked the new players. Lots of which hes managed before.

Hes sticking to a formation thats not working.

We're not scoring goals from open play.

Hes playing one striker miles away from the 3, one of which is a striker and wasted there.

We are losing goals like its going out of fashion. 

We have 5 midfielders yet we never seem to stop teams piling through the middle.

Hes got some really good, proven Premiership players that look utterly stinking.

Correct,  we are second. If the manager played a more attacking style or system like a 442 or something with more than an isolated forward, we may even be top, or at least still have a good chance of automatic promotion. Ayr have had an arse collapsing and we've benefited but nowhere nearly as much as we should have.

Like i said, give him till the end of the season. Better performances and losing the playoff final i can deal with. It would be progress. Shitfesting our way to promotion would be even better. Anything else and its bye bye for me.

Finally, It matters not how many managers we've sacked. Theyve deserved it. The previous 3 got far more time than they deserved. All that dosent mean we should just give RN time in the hope he might turn it round to spare another sacking. If hes rubbish and shows no sign of improving things himself then get rid. Anything else is madness.

 

Eta i actually dont mind RN. Liked him as a player when with us and, obviously, would like him to do well. Im not having a go at him because i dislike him for any reason.

Edited March 12, 2019 by mishtergrolsch

[MeadowArab]

We've been in the banter era for a long time now. The Armstrong and GMS sales are what started it with Mario Bilate fighting Dundee fans in nightclubs being the prologue.

I've not heard this about Bilate. Please enlighten me.

[Accent-Unknown]

3 hours ago, MeadowArab said:

15 hours ago, Accent-Unknown said:

We've been in the banter era for a long time now. The Armstrong and GMS sales are what started it with Mario Bilate fighting Dundee fans in nightclubs being the prologue.

I've not heard this about Bilate. Please enlighten me.

I admit to maybe overexaggerating for comedic effect. The story is that he got in a fight with a Dundee fan in I think Liquid not long after he shoved over that pitch invading Dundee in the Fojut game. There wasn't an article on it, the story came from a Facebook post by the Dundee fan's missus, which had photos of his face covered in bruises and ignored that basically everyone else at the time said he actually started on Bilate.

there was a few other rumours, one being that Cifcti was involved in the fight and that it was actually the same Dundee fan who ran onto the pitch. I can't remember if that was true or nonsense though.

[MeadowArab]

I admit to maybe overexaggerating for comedic effect. The story is that he got in a fight with a Dundee fan in I think Liquid not long after he shoved over that pitch invading Dundee in the Fojut game. There wasn't an article on it, the story came from a Facebook post by the Dundee fan's missus, which had photos of his face covered in bruises and ignored that basically everyone else at the time said he actually started on Bilate.
there was a few other rumours, one being that Cifcti was involved in the fight and that it was actually the same Dundee fan who ran onto the pitch. I can't remember if that was true or nonsense though.

Ah cheers. Much appreciated