The Spider Posted January 25, 2019 Author Share Posted January 25, 2019 4 hours ago, The man with no name said: So anyone who disagrees with you or points out flaws in your logic can't be a Queen's fan. No wonder our support is small! "Ah hypocracy, is that like maintaining amateur teams of football by playing professionals? " did not strike me as being in any way supportive of our club, and if you genuinely feel so strongly about our signing policy then why continue coming to our games? Is that not in itself hypocritical? Should the club ever turn professional there will be some fans who couldn't care less, whilst others who passionately believe in the amateur ethos will have a difficult choice to make. By arguing that we are already a professional club and remaining with us you appear to have made your choice, whilst mine lies ahead. Unless you have the inside knowledge to confirm otherwise, the bottom line is that the club does not now nor ever has it paid a player to play for us. That satisfies both my personal definition of amateurism and that of The President (otherwise why else would he be going on about the future possibility of turning professional). Two years ago the previous President made the following statement (I am not aware that anything has materially changed since then) setting out the Club's position. I have no reason to believe he was lying and so this forms the basis of my beliefs, but if you feel differently then that's entirely your perogative. I am posting this blog to reassure members and supporters that we remain totally committed to our philosophy of not paying our players, and to make the following points: We have been signing players who had previously been professional since 1995. At that time, we were advised by the SFL that we could not sign these players on an amateur form, so the pragmatic solution was to sign them on a professional form which stated explicitly that their wage would be £1 per week in lieu of expenses. When the SPFL came into being they produced a new form which did not have the facility to use the term “in lieu of expenses”. However, we explain to each player who signs a professional form with us that that is exactly what is meant, so there is no basis for doubt in the future. As a result, our players who are on professional forms are on exactly the same expenses structure (based on how far away they live) as those on amateur forms. The expenses, therefore, are solely for reimbursement of costs incurred. HMRC did not have a problem with this either at the time this solution was set up, or at our last payroll audit. Neither HMRC nor our accountants and auditors have questioned these arrangements. Thus, I trust you will accept that nothing has changed as a result of this article; we remain bastions of the amateur game, and remain true to our motto: ludere causa ludendi. And to conclude on my original point way back in this thread, that is why if we do turn professional we will no longer be remaining true to our motto, and why I suggest it would need to replaced. On 22/01/2019 at 11:45, Bring Your Own Socks said: 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The man with no name Posted January 25, 2019 Share Posted January 25, 2019 7 hours ago, The Spider said: "Ah hypocracy, is that like maintaining amateur teams of football by playing professionals? " did not strike me as being in any way supportive of our club, and if you genuinely feel so strongly about our signing policy then why continue coming to our games? Is that not in itself hypocritical? Should the club ever turn professional there will be some fans who couldn't care less, whilst others who passionately believe in the amateur ethos will have a difficult choice to make. By arguing that we are already a professional club and remaining with us you appear to have made your choice, whilst mine lies ahead. Unless you have the inside knowledge to confirm otherwise, the bottom line is that the club does not now nor ever has it paid a player to play for us. That satisfies both my personal definition of amateurism and that of The President (otherwise why else would he be going on about the future possibility of turning professional). Two years ago the previous President made the following statement (I am not aware that anything has materially changed since then) setting out the Club's position. I have no reason to believe he was lying and so this forms the basis of my beliefs, but if you feel differently then that's entirely your perogative. I am posting this blog to reassure members and supporters that we remain totally committed to our philosophy of not paying our players, and to make the following points: We have been signing players who had previously been professional since 1995. At that time, we were advised by the SFL that we could not sign these players on an amateur form, so the pragmatic solution was to sign them on a professional form which stated explicitly that their wage would be £1 per week in lieu of expenses. When the SPFL came into being they produced a new form which did not have the facility to use the term “in lieu of expenses”. However, we explain to each player who signs a professional form with us that that is exactly what is meant, so there is no basis for doubt in the future. As a result, our players who are on professional forms are on exactly the same expenses structure (based on how far away they live) as those on amateur forms. The expenses, therefore, are solely for reimbursement of costs incurred. HMRC did not have a problem with this either at the time this solution was set up, or at our last payroll audit. Neither HMRC nor our accountants and auditors have questioned these arrangements. Thus, I trust you will accept that nothing has changed as a result of this article; we remain bastions of the amateur game, and remain true to our motto: ludere causa ludendi. And to conclude on my original point way back in this thread, that is why if we do turn professional we will no longer be remaining true to our motto, and why I suggest it would need to replaced. I think you are well aware of the point I was making with that statement. It is a logical conclusion to draw. Let me make my own view perfectly clear. I am well aware of the the President's statement above and your own opinion on amateur status. You are perfectly entitled to your opinion. For me the opinions that people form aren't the crux of the matter. I am a realist and look at what actually the situation is. I was originally against signing loan players back in March 2000. When we brought in Paul Walker and Kevin Finlayson that was a huge leap for me and I wasn't happy about it. That is when we broke our amateur status. We were no longer fielding amateur football teams. People can say that we weren't paying them or any other excuse that appeases their own conscience but at the end of the day the only thing that matters is the Club and the objects of the Club. Playing professionals is not maintaining the objects of the Club - to maintain amateur teams of football. At that time, there was no relegation from the bottom league. There was no real threat to our Club. That was the time, for me, that we moved away from the amateurism that the Club forefathers envisioned. Queen's Park are my Club and I support them through thick and thin. I was not happy with this change but it happened, I accepted it and I continued to come and support them. This is something that others should think seriously about in the coming months. Things change, not everyone agrees with or likes change. Whether this is your thoughts on Hampden Park or our amateur status, things will inevitably change Anyone who doesn't see that coming is burying their head in the sand. The Club needs all of its supporters (and a few more new ones) to stick by it through this difficult period and help it survive and evolve to be a senior football club in the south side of Glasgow and be an alternative to Rangers and Celtic. A place where parents can bring their kids to a safe and welcoming environment to watch football for the love of the game. I am not greatly educated and do not know Latin but if we need a new motto then I suggest that - "for the love of the game" (and not in pretentious Latin!) 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Spider Posted January 25, 2019 Author Share Posted January 25, 2019 16 minutes ago, The man with no name said: I think you are well aware of the point I was making with that statement. It is a logical conclusion to draw. Let me make my own view perfectly clear. I am well aware of the the President's statement above and your own opinion on amateur status. You are perfectly entitled to your opinion. For me the opinions that people form aren't the crux of the matter. I am a realist and look at what actually the situation is. I was originally against signing loan players back in March 2000. When we brought in Paul Walker and Kevin Finlayson that was a huge leap for me and I wasn't happy about it. That is when we broke our amateur status. We were no longer fielding amateur football teams. People can say that we weren't paying them or any other excuse that appeases their own conscience but at the end of the day the only thing that matters is the Club and the objects of the Club. Playing professionals is not maintaining the objects of the Club - to maintain amateur teams of football. At that time, there was no relegation from the bottom league. There was no real threat to our Club. That was the time, for me, that we moved away from the amateurism that the Club forefathers envisioned. Queen's Park are my Club and I support them through thick and thin. I was not happy with this change but it happened, I accepted it and I continued to come and support them. This is something that others should think seriously about in the coming months. Things change, not everyone agrees with or likes change. Whether this is your thoughts on Hampden Park or our amateur status, things will inevitably change Anyone who doesn't see that coming is burying their head in the sand. The Club needs all of its supporters (and a few more new ones) to stick by it through this difficult period and help it survive and evolve to be a senior football club in the south side of Glasgow and be an alternative to Rangers and Celtic. A place where parents can bring their kids to a safe and welcoming environment to watch football for the love of the game. I am not greatly educated and do not know Latin but if we need a new motto then I suggest that - "for the love of the game" (and not in pretentious Latin!) Very good post TMWNN and it very accurately summarises our current stances. Like you, at the time of the Walker and Finlayson deals I wasn't happy with them but viewed them as a stretch of our ethos, whereas for you it was a step too far. Despite that you stuck with the club so you deserve credit for that. Whether when the time comes that I think we have gone too far, I am able to make the same leap of faith as you remains to be seen. The only thing I would query in your post is when you say you want us to "evolve to be a senior football club in the south side of Glasgow and be an alternative to Rangers and Celtic. A place where parents can bring their kids to a safe and welcoming environment to watch football for the love of the game." How does that differ from what we are already as every club in the spfl set-up is senior is it not? I like your recommendation for a new motto though, and when the time comes if you put forward a motion for it I'd be happy to second it. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Spider Posted January 25, 2019 Author Share Posted January 25, 2019 1 hour ago, You Only Live Twice said: No need to change your motto, you’ll always be amateur to us But if you decide to then might I suggest ‘Nos sumus stercore’ as a suitable replacement? Adepto is sursum vobis! 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The man with no name Posted January 25, 2019 Share Posted January 25, 2019 1 hour ago, You Only Live Twice said: No need to change your motto, you’ll always be amateur to us But if you decide to then might I suggest ‘Nos sumus stercore’ as a suitable replacement? Still the amateur team that gubbed you in the play off final!!! 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The man with no name Posted January 25, 2019 Share Posted January 25, 2019 12 minutes ago, The Spider said: Very good post TMWNN and it very accurately summarises our current stances. Like you, at the time of the Walker and Finlayson deals I wasn't happy with them but viewed them as a stretch of our ethos, whereas for you it was a step too far. Despite that you stuck with the club so you deserve credit for that. Whether when the time comes that I think we have gone too far, I am able to make the same leap of faith as you remains to be seen. The only thing I would query in your post is when you say you want us to "evolve to be a senior football club in the south side of Glasgow and be an alternative to Rangers and Celtic. A place where parents can bring their kids to a safe and welcoming environment to watch football for the love of the game." How does that differ from what we are already as every club in the spfl set-up is senior is it not? I like your recommendation for a new motto though, and when the time comes if you put forward a motion for it I'd be happy to second it. Thank you. Apologies, that should be "continue". 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mick1867 Posted January 25, 2019 Share Posted January 25, 2019 (edited) 11 hours ago, The Spider said: whilst others who passionately believe in the amateur ethos will have a difficult choice to make. If people were being truly genuine in their passionate belief of the amateur ethos then surely these same people should have a problem with us playing against professional teams. A bit like when we refused to join the SFL until 10 years after it was formed in 1890. Thankfully common sense eventually prevailed back then. I would be sad to see some fans go if we turned pro but I think the club will be able to move on and prosper without them. Is this an age thing? I'm no youngster but I haven't spoken to anyone under 30 who cares that passionately about our amateur status, although there must be some out there Edited January 25, 2019 by Mick1867 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The man with no name Posted January 25, 2019 Share Posted January 25, 2019 (edited) Playing against rapists Edited January 25, 2019 by The man with no name 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Spider Posted January 25, 2019 Author Share Posted January 25, 2019 1 hour ago, Mick1867 said: Is this an age thing? I'm no youngster but I haven't spoken to anyone under 30 who cares that passionately about our amateur status, although there must be some out there I think you've hit the nail on the head there Mick. My suspicion is that there is a direct correlation, and that the younger the supporter the less that part of our tradition means. Back in the 70s we had a dearth of fresh blood coming through but things picked up after our championship win in 1980-81, and we have been reasonably successful in maintaining our attendances bearing in mind that back in the 70s a very high proportion of our support were aged over 40. Returning to your above statement, I'd be genuinely surprised if you found anybody under 30 who cared that passionately about our amateur status, which is why I strongly believe it's something that will happen within the next five years, and probably sooner rather than later. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mick1867 Posted January 25, 2019 Share Posted January 25, 2019 The important question is....just how many aliases does The Artist Formerly Known As Elementary Penguin have on this site now? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bring Your Own Socks Posted January 25, 2019 Share Posted January 25, 2019 19 minutes ago, Mick1867 said: The important question is....just how many aliases does The Artist Formerly Known As Elementary Penguin have on this site now? That's like leaving a pot of jam under a wasps nest. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Glasgow1999 Posted January 25, 2019 Share Posted January 25, 2019 1 hour ago, The Spider said: I think you've hit the nail on the head there Mick. My suspicion is that there is a direct correlation, and that the younger the supporter the less that part of our tradition means. Back in the 70s we had a dearth of fresh blood coming through but things picked up after our championship win in 1980-81, and we have been reasonably successful in maintaining our attendances bearing in mind that back in the 70s a very high proportion of our support were aged over 40. Returning to your above statement, I'd be genuinely surprised if you found anybody under 30 who cared that passionately about our amateur status, which is why I strongly believe it's something that will happen within the next five years, and probably sooner rather than later. Doubt there are many members under 50! 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
an86 Posted January 25, 2019 Share Posted January 25, 2019 3 hours ago, You Only Live Twice said: To be fair that is the only relevant thing you’ve done in recent times and a significant scalp to claim so is bound to live on in the memory. Back at your natural level now though Tell us about all of your achievements over the past decade? Other than attempting to become a retirement home for Rangers players, relegation to the bottom tier for near on a decade, and signing a rapist, I'm really struggling to think of any. You now play in front of even smaller average crowds than an amateur team, who used to be your neighbours before you were evicted from a crumbling dog track in favour of a speedway team with a bigger fan base. Even your eviction managed to be more tragic than ours. -1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mick1867 Posted January 25, 2019 Share Posted January 25, 2019 2 hours ago, Glasgow1999 said: Doubt there are many members under 50! Ahem...I know a few Yeah it's a worry but thankfully the word is getting out and we're (slowly) getting there. However, I feel the club should be doing more to encourage more of our support to become members. Of course maybe that wouldn't suit some of them, having to associate with us plebs 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Spider Posted January 25, 2019 Author Share Posted January 25, 2019 2 hours ago, Glasgow1999 said: Doubt there are many members under 50! Certainly not many under 40, but I believe there are a few in between. However, you raise a very valid point, as of course it will be the members who will decide the club's future and not the general support. Even 5 years ago I'd have been confident that a majority would vote in favour of remaining amateur, but I doubt that would be the case now for two reasons. Firstly if the President and a majority of Committee feel it's imperative for the future of the club, I think many would be swayed by that. Secondly, there are a sizeable bunch who simply follow the committee's lead, either on principle or because it's what they've been told to do. Sad but true as was demonstrated within the last few years. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Spider Posted January 25, 2019 Author Share Posted January 25, 2019 1 hour ago, You Only Live Twice said: Pass the tissues! Why? Having control problems, or just enjoying that David Galt goal a little bit too much again? You do seem to spend a disproportionate amount of time posting on our threads my friend. Infatuation, or just no longer welcome amongst your own kind? Either way you're welcome to change your allegiance and come and support our progressive club instead of one with a limited future (on reflection, perhaps I'm taking this recruitment drive of ours a wee bit too far there ) 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
an86 Posted January 26, 2019 Share Posted January 26, 2019 12 hours ago, You Only Live Twice said: I cannot for the life of me recall a diddy outfit so obsessed by a single goal, it’s simply adorable! Genuinely amazed by how rattled some Clyde fans are, even after all this time. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dooflick Posted January 26, 2019 Share Posted January 26, 2019 Hello fellow supporters, I read your comments every week and have only made three previous posts, however, regarding us becoming a part-time professional club, is in my opinion, not going to happen. Where is the money going to come from? The way that the club is run has been based on the money we have always got from the SFA for their use of Hampden since 1903. The youth structure which we run at present takes up a lot of that money and indeed has produced many good players for us and other clubs when when these young men have moved on. I doubt very much if we will be able to afford this massive youth programme when the SFA money stops. I believe that we may only be able to run an U/16 and an U/18 team plus a reserve team, on top of the first team. Money will be saved by doing this and there will also be, I feel, people on the staff, at all levels, who will have to be made redundant. My reasoning for this is very simple, when we move out of Hampden we will loose an income of over £300k per year. We will never make that up through gate money, never ever. Of the £5m that we are getting for the sale of Hampden I think about £1.5m will be spent to bring Lesser up to being a nice wee stadium, holding about 1,500 people, with the rest being invested to bring in a return of about £100k per annum which is £200k short of what we are getting and on that basis professionalism will never happen. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DundeeSpider1867 Posted January 26, 2019 Share Posted January 26, 2019 Good to see us stop the rot, hopefully this is the point where we kick on and we can put some points on the board from our next game v Berwick. Probably would like to see a loan singing come in too, either a Midfielder or Defender. I feel like Magee and McLaren both need an old head with composure (Gerry or Scott) to guide them through the game, so maybe see if theres an Andy Millen-esque guy looking to get regular games again out there?Exactly what we needed! 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DundeeSpider1867 Posted January 26, 2019 Share Posted January 26, 2019 I cannot for the life of me recall a diddy outfit so obsessed by a single goal, it’s simply adorable!“Progressive” [emoji23]Aww mate, it’s nae wonder I can’t stay away from your hilarious chat. And thanks for the offer but I’d rather set myself on fire [emoji1303]A single goal? We'll take 7 then pal. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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