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Kelty Hearts lowland league quest


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2 minutes ago, foreverarover said:

Kelty should look to get a successful manager to structure a club from the grass roots. Barry Ferguson certainly isn't that. That's the first mistake.

Again you give no actual reasons. Happy to have a debate on the merits of Ferguson and this season will certainly show if he's the man for the job.  The financial side is quite rightly being questioned but it's also been answered umpteen times.  People are happy to listen to the doom and gloom views but seem to ignore all of the points made that show we are financially stable and planning for the future exceptionally well.

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There is obviously a decent bit of money at Kelty, but to call them another Gretna is extreme imo. They are not just chucking money around, they are also investing heavily in the club & facilities. I'm not sure if they have a wealthy backer or not, but the money they do have is for a large part clearly used to invest in the long term. Should funding go down in the future, they will still benefit from that. Unlike Gretna, where it was obvious it was unsustainable.

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12 hours ago, foreverarover said:

If I see players such as Austin in the lowland league instead of at the likes of Starks park as a hybrid team next season I'd be very surprised. If he drops to that level then it's a serious lack of ambition. And yes I do watch the lowland league. It pretty much junior football with a different name.

 

Looking at it from the players point of view they are mostly mid to late twenties and have not made the top grade so if jobs  and trades are being made available outside of football then surely that is ambitious to take new directions for life after football as I know a few people who are tradesmen and believe me they are being paid a lot more than 2nd 1st and championship football players 

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Rovers fan talking about club finances, remind us again about the absolute car crash the last Raith Rovers accounts were. [emoji38]
Yup I can , and never said I agreed with the way rovers are just now. The board of directors are clueless and had no management skills whatsoever. I'd be very wary of Kelty paying big wages for players and being managed by Barry Ferguson and his pal Bob Malcolm. That is the biggest worry for them.
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1 hour ago, gogsy said:

Rovers fan talking about club finances, remind us again about the absolute car crash the last Raith Rovers accounts were. :lol:

That has nothing to do with Kelty shelling out on lower Championship/upper League One players, and appointing a celebrity as manager.

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47 minutes ago, foreverarover said:
1 hour ago, gogsy said:
Rovers fan talking about club finances, remind us again about the absolute car crash the last Raith Rovers accounts were. emoji38.png

Yup I can , and never said I agreed with the way rovers are just now. The board of directors are clueless and had no management skills whatsoever. I'd be very wary of Kelty paying big wages for players and being managed by Barry Ferguson and his pal Bob Malcolm. That is the biggest worry for them.

Again you provide no real arguments for your citicism. Pointless posts all day.

Edited by leomessi1984
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26 minutes ago, leomessi1984 said:

Again you provide no real arguments for your citicism. Pointless posts all day.

As far as the money stuff goes, I've personally never criticised Kelty for spending more money to get players in. I'm not going to go surfing back the past 20 pages of the thread to find out where it's come from, feel free to sum it up for me. My argument has always been (particularly on the EF thread about where our released players are heading) is a couple of fans seemed incapable of just admitting that you're getting these players because you're spending more than everyone else, nowt to do with who you're releasing, the great stadium or the fact some think the previous bang average players are going to demand transfer fees that will fund new players

I don't deny that you might have a great set up, forward thinking club, board working well behind the scenes etc etc, but players go for money. FWIW, I think the Gretna comparison is being chucked in far too early, loads of clubs (including my own) have had rich benefactors even if only temporarily, it doesn't automatically mean you'll go bust.

As far as Barry Ferguson goes, he was poor at Clyde who had one of the bigger budgets in the league, leaving them in 8th place in the table having tried to spend his own money to get better players to cover up his own managerial inadequacies. He appears to have found his niche learning from the way Rangers operated. So if you're wondering why people think he's not the answer for a supposedly forward thinking lowland league club, it's because based on the 4 years of managerial evidence we have in front of us, he's so far been a failure. 

ETA - Not sure if any of you listen to the Pele Podcast, but last summer at least one former Clyde player that was there under Ferguson (canny mind who, I'd have to listen to them all again) was discussing why it never worked. I remember them talking about how, because of the level Barry played at he was expecting players to be able to do what he told them, but sometimes what he was asking was too much for the standard of player at that level. It should therefore be of no surprise that he failed at Clyde. If Kelty do have a strong and succesful 2019/2020 season, I strongly suspect it will have nothing to do with Fergusons managerial prowess. In fact, based on the evidence, he will hold you back.

ETA v2 - Were you not top when he took over last year? :lol:

Edited by Big Fifer
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41 minutes ago, Big Fifer said:

As far as the money stuff goes, I've personally never criticised Kelty for spending more money to get players in. I'm not going to go surfing back the past 20 pages of the thread to find out where it's come from, feel free to sum it up for me. My argument has always been (particularly on the EF thread about where our released players are heading) is a couple of fans seemed incapable of just admitting that you're getting these players because you're spending more than everyone else, nowt to do with who you're releasing, the great stadium or the fact some think the previous bang average players are going to demand transfer fees that will fund new players

I don't deny that you might have a great set up, forward thinking club, board working well behind the scenes etc etc, but players go for money. FWIW, I think the Gretna comparison is being chucked in far too early, loads of clubs (including my own) have had rich benefactors even if only temporarily, it doesn't automatically mean you'll go bust.

As far as Barry Ferguson goes, he was poor at Clyde who had one of the bigger budgets in the league, leaving them in 8th place in the table having tried to spend his own money to get better players to cover up his own managerial inadequacies. He appears to have found his niche learning from the way Rangers operated. So if you're wondering why people think he's not the answer for a supposedly forward thinking lowland league club, it's because based on the 4 years of managerial evidence we have in front of us, he's so far been a failure. 

ETA - Not sure if any of you listen to the Pele Podcast, but last summer at least one former Clyde player that was there under Ferguson (canny mind who, I'd have to listen to them all again) was discussing why it never worked. I remember them talking about how, because of the level Barry played at he was expecting players to be able to do what he told them, but sometimes what he was asking was too much for the standard of player at that level. It should therefore be of no surprise that he failed at Clyde. If Kelty do have a strong and succesful 2019/2020 season, I strongly suspect it will have nothing to do with Fergusons managerial prowess. In fact, based on the evidence, he will hold you back.

ETA v2 - Were you not top when he took over last year? :lol:

Great post with some great points.  The only issue I have is when folk wade in with single line statements with 0 info or facts to even mildly support thier view. 

We certainly were top but had yet to play most of the top teams and also I think we were quite an unknown  quantity at that point for the other sides.  I'd have wagered that we would have ended up near where we have landed had Tam stayed in charge.  There is no doubt that Ferguson is yet to prove himself - at Kelty I can only go on what I have seen at training and in games.  His training is brilliant from what I have seen - all the players are also saying that.  Some games we have certainly lacked a bit pace and bite for me and whether that's him or the players time will tell.  Myabe he does expect to much but standards can also drive results as long as they are achievable.

On finances - of course we are spending big by the looks of it.  However that does not mean it's not sustainable and we will go down the tubes - there is a structured approach supported by a great committee and also a backer who ties some stuff into his business.  In no way do the players elaving cover the outlay, to suggest so is just blowing smoke however folk are getting a but uppity with thier comments.

Edited by leomessi1984
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13 minutes ago, leomessi1984 said:

Great post with some great points.  The only issue I have is when folk wade in with single line statements with 0 info or facts to even mildly support thier view. 

We certainly were top but had yet to play most of the top teams and also I think we were quite an unknown  quantity at that point for the other sides.  I'd have wagered that we would have ended up near where we have landed had Tam stayed in charge.  There is no doubt that Ferguson is yet to prove himself - at Kelty I can only go on what I have seen at training and in games.  His training is brilliant from what I have seen - all the players are also saying that.  Some games we have certainly lacked a bit pace and bite for me and whether that's him or the players time will tell.  Myabe he does expect to much but standards can also drive results as long as they are achievable.

On finances - of course we are spending big by the looks of it.  However that does not mean it's not sustainable and we will go down the tubes - there is a structured approach supported by a great committee and also a backer who ties some stuff into his business.  In no way do the players elaving cover the outlay, to suggest so is just blowing smoke however folk are getting a but uppity with thier comments.

I guess we will have to wait and see on Ferguson. I think players at LL level are always going to be impressed initially by the training under someone of his stature. There's also a very real difference between being a good coach and a good manager, and based on who you're signing any cracks in his managerial ability will most likely be covered up by the fact he's signing League 1 players to play in the LL. I've no idea of the budgets of EK and your other competitors, are the Kelty board looking to be winning this league? Is this the aim? It surely has to be given the signings. 

I think it's safe to say you are spending big. And yes, it's not to say you'll go down the tubes, but it's only sustainable for as long as whoever it is that's putting the cash in has an interest. Are we sure the backer will be here in 2 years if it doesn't work? 5 years? No sane businessman will be spending money at this level if you don't go up, so promotion and winning the league must be the aim for 19/20. What does a structured approach mean? I don't think it's too far a stretch to say you'll be spending more than you are bringing in, without the backer's contribution of course. Is the backer doing the Dumbarton thing of signing players and helping them out with jobs also? Fair enough if you can't answer/don't feel comfortable, sometimes backers don't want to be at the forefront and sometimes they do. 

A lot of fans dubious about the spending levels are from clubs who've experienced this sort of thing; board members promising the world with their cash only for a few years down the line (or even months) for it to crumble (See Wullie Gray at us, the Lee Murray debacle also). It comes across as taking a swipe at your club, but I'd heed it as a warning. Take it from someone that was personally hoodwinked by the Lee Murray pizzazz a few years back...

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Amazed to see people ask where the money is coming from when it's wee Bazza in charge. He threw his own money around at Clyde signing players from higher leagues too.  He's a complete failure of a manager.


Rumour has it plenty of big bets were placed on Barry Ferguson to become next kelty manager. Explains where some of the money is coming from
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40 minutes ago, Big Fifer said:

I guess we will have to wait and see on Ferguson. I think players at LL level are always going to be impressed initially by the training under someone of his stature. There's also a very real difference between being a good coach and a good manager, and based on who you're signing any cracks in his managerial ability will most likely be covered up by the fact he's signing League 1 players to play in the LL. I've no idea of the budgets of EK and your other competitors, are the Kelty board looking to be winning this league? Is this the aim? It surely has to be given the signings. 

I think it's safe to say you are spending big. And yes, it's not to say you'll go down the tubes, but it's only sustainable for as long as whoever it is that's putting the cash in has an interest. Are we sure the backer will be here in 2 years if it doesn't work? 5 years? No sane businessman will be spending money at this level if you don't go up, so promotion and winning the league must be the aim for 19/20. What does a structured approach mean? I don't think it's too far a stretch to say you'll be spending more than you are bringing in, without the backer's contribution of course. Is the backer doing the Dumbarton thing of signing players and helping them out with jobs also? Fair enough if you can't answer/don't feel comfortable, sometimes backers don't want to be at the forefront and sometimes they do. 

A lot of fans dubious about the spending levels are from clubs who've experienced this sort of thing; board members promising the world with their cash only for a few years down the line (or even months) for it to crumble (See Wullie Gray at us, the Lee Murray debacle also). It comes across as taking a swipe at your club, but I'd heed it as a warning. Take it from someone that was personally hoodwinked by the Lee Murray pizzazz a few years back...

Husband is the example that will likely be duplicated with the new signings. He's on a competivie wage for playing with a job linked into the package.

100% if we sign who we are being linked with we need to be winning the league. Although Stirling might well have something to say about it given who they are bringing in!

Your post comes across as sensible and measured - it's appreciated.

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44 minutes ago, cowden boy said:

 


Rumour has it plenty of big bets were placed on Barry Ferguson to become next kelty manager. Explains where some of the money is coming from

 

What bookies would make a book on the next  manager of a non league club :blink:

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27 minutes ago, lithgierose said:

How many players has Ferguson signed, since he took over ?

Dodd, McBride, Campbell, Sean McKirdy and the returning O'Neil signed and all still there with Wilson & Devlin in and out very quickly and Finn Graham in on a temp deal before he went to Oz.

Shipped out the Gay brothers, Nico Gibson, Ian Nimmo, Taylor-McKenzie. C Courts also left not long after Tam exited.

Seems a lot but if you look at player turnover the last few years it's simiar.

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Ferguson's problem at Clyde wasn't attracting decent players it was trying to model them into a team. The turnover of players at Clyde was also ridiculous. Would not be surprised if some of these signings don't last a couple of months before he's away signing more players.

You could seem him getting frustrated with the players because they were nowhere near the level he was used to. Once he starts crouching down on the touch line you know your fucked and he doesn't know what to do.

Ferguson tried his hardest to make it work at Clyde but ultimately he just wasn't very good. Hopefully he has learned from his time at Clyde but so far he seems to be repeating the same mistakes. Having Bob Malcolm as assistant rather than an experienced number 2. Spending loads of cash to attract well known players. Building his team round Easton was a disaster at Clyde.

The year we were fighting relegation to the LL we had 5 of the players from the previous seasons SPFL2 team of the year and Peaso up front [emoji23]

Linking the package to a job outside of football has been done before. Realistically how many players can you do that with though and what do you do when Ferguson wants to ship them out after a few months?

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