Kelty Hearts lowland league quest

[Gordon EF]

34 minutes ago, pipedreamer said:

Do you think it is purely financial? Or do you not think players talk amongst themselves and when faced with a choice of a potential relegation avoidance as a clubs goal or a potential assault on a league title, that they would be more likely to choose the latter?

Yes, this is what we see in every league in every country. Players running over each other to plummet down the leagues chasing a championship medal multiple levels below where they're used to playing.

All the West Ham players that didn't get that dream move to Rotherham in January must be gutted.

[Marshmallo]

38 minutes ago, pipedreamer said:

Do you think it is purely financial? Or do you not think players talk amongst themselves and when faced with a choice of a potential relegation avoidance as a clubs goal or a potential assault on a league title, that they would be more likely to choose the latter?

The Corinthian spirit is, of course, the only logical explanation for all this.

[The Informer]

58 minutes ago, pipedreamer said:

Austin, Reilly, Easton, Humphrey & Linton all work full time jobs outside of football, why would they do that if Kelty was such a cash cow and paid them more than league 1 teams?

You may find some of them work for Kelty’s main investor??

[KH FC]

I'm not privy to any information beyond which is already in the public domain so I'm not going to speculate. For arguments sake though let's assume that some of what's posted here is accurate and that part of Keltys funding is derived from supporters putting their hands in their pockets, paying above the expected amount for sponsorship opportunities or a combination of both. 

It's no different from what happens at clubs across the UK and beyond. I can see why people would want to bang on endlessly about it, but as long as it's legal I'm perfectly comfortable with it with some caveats. There needs to be a clear plan with a clear end point. I'm satisfied that's the case at Kelty, the stated ambition is to become an SPFL club and it's a perfectly realistic goal. The club also needs to have a long term, sustainable future once it achieves that aim. If Kelty become an SPFL club im confident that given what's currently there in terms of support and facilities it's likely they'd be able to maintain their place in the SPFL without any "investors" as The Informer referred to them. The jokes about the raffle paying Austin's wages are amusing, but Kelty are a team with a support that compares favourably with League Two attendances. They are also a club that's very well run, have a great community set up, great facilities and are making the most of sponsorship opportunities (they also have a very popular raffle for what its worth). 

Given what I'm seeing every other week, and given what I've seen at other clubs at various levels, I'm satisfied that Kelty would have a sustainable future in the SPFL. If they started spending money and taking shortcuts to reach a level beyond which they'd be able to sustain (Gretna) I'll be the first person to say we're in a false position. At the moment though, we're nowhere near it. 

[Zen Archer (Raconteur)]

4 hours ago, Big Fifer said:

Absolutely, but I'm not representative of everyone posting here. I am an absolute bitter wee guy when it comes to this especially when it's a club along the road. But I can take a more neutral view if I need to, as above. 

[sirscottyoung]

Think some people are forgetting that these guys all have lives outwith football.

Many footballers have jobs they arent keen on outside of football to make ends meet.
So
If a club offered you say an apprenticeship in joinery which paid you a wage worthy of a joiner (£500-600 after tax) as well as a standard wage for football (£250pw for arguments sake) why wouldnt you consider the lower placed team with the long term opportunities.

I certainly would.

Its a brilliant way to help bankroll a club up the leagues and its not just kelty that do it. A quick list of clubs that do this already are:
Brora
Cove
Ross county used to
Dumbarton
Arbroath

If I was to ever buy east fife I wish I could have business to set up guys like this as I would sure as hell make east fife the team to go to for that...

[Thom & Gerry]

No chance I’m paying my apprentice £500 per week before tax never mind after. Where do I apply?

[sirscottyoung]

No chance I’m paying my apprentice £500 per week before tax never mind after. Where do I apply?

That's why your apprentices aren't championship quality players playing for your team [emoji23]
I doubt any of these guys would be an apprentice for £7.70ph which you will know is an apprentice over 21 min wage.
£308 before tax for 40 hours when they could labour on a site for £8.21 or do pretty much anything else for more.

[Kelheart]

5 minutes ago, sirscottyoung said:

That's why your apprentices aren't championship quality players playing for your team
I doubt any of these guys would be an apprentice for £7.70ph which you will know is an apprentice over 21 min wage.
£308 before tax for 40 hours when they could labour on a site for £8.21 or do pretty much anything else for more.

Bring back the YTS £29.50 a week well enough for a young one learning a trade 

[Thom & Gerry]

[Hampden Diehard]

Bring back the YTS £29.50 a week well enough for a young one learning a trade [emoji15]

But there would be a win bonus of half a crown on top of that.

[bravehearts dad]

10 hours ago, Hampden Diehard said:

10 hours ago, Kelheart said:

Bring back the YTS £29.50 a week well enough for a young one learning a trade 

But there would be a win bonus of half a crown on top of that.

What is half a crown?

 

C’mon The Rose 

[Gordon EF]

13 hours ago, KH FC said:

I'm not privy to any information beyond which is already in the public domain so I'm not going to speculate. For arguments sake though let's assume that some of what's posted here is accurate and that part of Keltys funding is derived from supporters putting their hands in their pockets, paying above the expected amount for sponsorship opportunities or a combination of both. 

It's no different from what happens at clubs across the UK and beyond. I can see why people would want to bang on endlessly about it, but as long as it's legal I'm perfectly comfortable with it with some caveats. There needs to be a clear plan with a clear end point. I'm satisfied that's the case at Kelty, the stated ambition is to become an SPFL club and it's a perfectly realistic goal. The club also needs to have a long term, sustainable future once it achieves that aim. If Kelty become an SPFL club im confident that given what's currently there in terms of support and facilities it's likely they'd be able to maintain their place in the SPFL without any "investors" as The Informer referred to them. The jokes about the raffle paying Austin's wages are amusing, but Kelty are a team with a support that compares favourably with League Two attendances. They are also a club that's very well run, have a great community set up, great facilities and are making the most of sponsorship opportunities (they also have a very popular raffle for what its worth). 

Given what I'm seeing every other week, and given what I've seen at other clubs at various levels, I'm satisfied that Kelty would have a sustainable future in the SPFL. If they started spending money and taking shortcuts to reach a level beyond which they'd be able to sustain (Gretna) I'll be the first person to say we're in a false position. At the moment though, we're nowhere near it. 

That's a sensible post.

To be honest, I don't think Kelty are doing anything wrong in any kind of moral sense at all and I don't think many people are saying that. Plenty of SPFL clubs have recived funding from individuals or groups of individuals that have let them sign players that let them outperform what they would have been able to do without that funding. As someone already mentioned, East Fife had that with Willie Gray a few years ago.

Kelty's model does seem a lot more sensible and sustainable and less likely to leave them stuck in the shite at some point. They're a club I've had a lot of time for and have given them plenty of priase for being the first major junior club with the vision to take that risk and step into the pyramid. Without that, maybe we wouldn't have seen the following exodus from the East and strengthening of th eleagues below the SPFL.

What I think is making Kelty take a fair amount of flack is the Comical Ali style attempts to refuse to admit that it's this money which is primarly behind the squad Kelty have been able to build and the current levle of expectation that they will be able to get into the SPFL and compete next season. You're signing players from two or even three levels above, that plenty of League One clubs with (presumably) larger turnovers then Kelty, would easily have wanted to sign. For all the talk of wanting to win a medal, everyone knows, you only ever see this to that extent when a club are offering wages or a total financial package well beyond the level they're currently at.

It seems that, investment aside, Kelty are a club doing things the right way and that's great to see. But guys like Austn, Tidser, Easton etc are categorically not at Kelty because they bought into Barry Ferguson's "vision" or because Kelty are a well run club or because it's an "exciting project" or because they've always wanted a Lowland League championship medal to add to the trophy cabinet. Of course these things help, but they're sitting down and talking to Kelty because they're being offered more money at Kelty than other clubs.

[leomessi1984]

On another topic - has Scott Christie actually joined anyone else since he left?  Surprised to see no news after the talk of a big move to a full time side again (Hamilton?).

[HendersonDelivers]

26 minutes ago, leomessi1984 said:

On another topic - has Scott Christie actually joined anyone else since he left?  Surprised to see no news after the talk of a big move to a full time side again (Hamilton?).

he is clas

[BS7]

On 05/02/2020 at 12:35, ListerRRFC said:

Not true, from the man himself at the weekend Queen's Park offered him big money but he didn't want to go part time yet so I can only imagine Kelty have offered him more.

That’s two different things - he was offered on loan - and no one took it up. 

[Bring Back Paddy Flannery]

Think some people are forgetting that these guys all have lives outwith football.

Many footballers have jobs they arent keen on outside of football to make ends meet.
So
If a club offered you say an apprenticeship in joinery which paid you a wage worthy of a joiner (£500-600 after tax) as well as a standard wage for football (£250pw for arguments sake) why wouldnt you consider the lower placed team with the long term opportunities.

I certainly would.

Its a brilliant way to help bankroll a club up the leagues and its not just kelty that do it. A quick list of clubs that do this already are:
Brora
Cove
Ross county used to
Dumbarton
Arbroath

If I was to ever buy east fife I wish I could have business to set up guys like this as I would sure as hell make east fife the team to go to for that...

Ours is completely seperate from the club in the form of our sponsors who are able to offer some work on railways.

We have a team made up of mostly exit trial jobbers, oddballs and guys who couldn't get a deal with anyone else.

We couldn't come close to affording the likes of Nathan Austin or Michael Tidser, even with the offer of full-time work.

[KH FC]

12 hours ago, Gordon EF said:

That's a sensible post.

To be honest, I don't think Kelty are doing anything wrong in any kind of moral sense at all and I don't think many people are saying that. Plenty of SPFL clubs have recived funding from individuals or groups of individuals that have let them sign players that let them outperform what they would have been able to do without that funding. As someone already mentioned, East Fife had that with Willie Gray a few years ago.

Kelty's model does seem a lot more sensible and sustainable and less likely to leave them stuck in the shite at some point. They're a club I've had a lot of time for and have given them plenty of priase for being the first major junior club with the vision to take that risk and step into the pyramid. Without that, maybe we wouldn't have seen the following exodus from the East and strengthening of th eleagues below the SPFL.

What I think is making Kelty take a fair amount of flack is the Comical Ali style attempts to refuse to admit that it's this money which is primarly behind the squad Kelty have been able to build and the current levle of expectation that they will be able to get into the SPFL and compete next season. You're signing players from two or even three levels above, that plenty of League One clubs with (presumably) larger turnovers then Kelty, would easily have wanted to sign. For all the talk of wanting to win a medal, everyone knows, you only ever see this to that extent when a club are offering wages or a total financial package well beyond the level they're currently at.

It seems that, investment aside, Kelty are a club doing things the right way and that's great to see. But guys like Austn, Tidser, Easton etc are categorically not at Kelty because they bought into Barry Ferguson's "vision" or because Kelty are a well run club or because it's an "exciting project" or because they've always wanted a Lowland League championship medal to add to the trophy cabinet. Of course these things help, but they're sitting down and talking to Kelty because they're being offered more money at Kelty than other clubs.

Some good points here. Its often the case that people who can tell you what's happening typically wont unless theres an obligation to do so or a clear advantage to be gained. That goes for "behind the scenes" in business, sport and politics. Transparency is great, but I can understand why people would want to keep their cards close to their chest, and if someone is putting money in chances are they're not the kind of people who'd be inclined to have their picture taken at half time handing over a giant novelty cheque. I cant think of many players whod admit they moved for the money, and fewer still managers/club officials whod say someone's here because they've got the deepest pockets. It's not the done thing, it's part of how business is conducted and I'm not sure if after thinking about it anyone would be genuinely surprised that's not what's happening. 

Also, the club can still be washing its face through "commercial sponsorship" and supporters can still be putting money in, the two arent necessarily mutually exclusive. 

 

[TheSaltire]

As a season ticket holder, advertising board investor, hospitality regular and 2x, yes 2x, raffle winner.... All I can say is Kelty are robbing b*****ds who led to my first divorce and possibly my second.....

 

 

But I'd do it a third time just see us at the dance! Mon the Kelty! 

[kefc]

16 minutes ago, TheSaltire said:

As a season ticket holder, advertising board investor, hospitality regular and 2x, yes 2x, raffle winner.... All I can say is Kelty are robbing b*****ds who led to my first divorce and possibly my second.....

 

 

But I'd do it a third time just see us at the dance! Mon the Kelty! 

Best post on the thread