The Ultimate Super Ayr Thread

[Frosty]

33 minutes ago, Trogdor said:

I'm still amazed Livi are paying squad players twice what we pay first teamers. They must be teetering toward administration number 3. Maybe that's why they are playing hardball. Every penny is a prisoner.

Not sure why you’re amazed, just taking prize money for final league position as one example of the earning difference between the clubs, last season Livi finishing 7th in their league and us ending up 8th in the Championship would have seen them earning over 8 times more than us.

It’s a slippery slope for any club to be paying the wage level for the league above when they’re not yet in it. Mullin is 31 in September so will have no resale value too.

I think it’s unlikely Livi are trying to get us to pay a fee to sign a player out of contract in a few months but would have thought they’d be pushing to get us to pay a higher proportion of his wages in light of his performances and importance to us - it’s what I’d expect us to do if the roles were reversed.

Would be surprised if we don’t reach agreement to extend the loan for the rest of the season as unless Livi have an alternative loan/sale option they’d be paying all of his wages. Whether we sign him for next season will depend on his wage expectations, the reality of someone paying them for a soon to be 31 year old with a limited career CV and most importantly for us what Division we are in next season.

[Jamie_M]

52 minutes ago, ayrunitedfw said:

There is no benefit to Livingston of recalling him unless they have the intention of playing him which given Martindales comment when he signed and how well Livingston are doing seems unlikely. I’d imagine we’re probably paying part of his wages so recalling him when he can’t go out on loan to anyone else this season would end up costing them money. 
 

Or, as has been well documented  Livi need to trim their wage bill. So they want him completely off the wage bill or others come off the wage bill meaning he might need to go back as squad filler.

[Hazbart]

12 minutes ago, Iain said:

Is it only Scottish clubs that are affected? I thought the two clubs rule was global? It certainly stopped us loaning a player from Coventry a few years back.

I’m pretty sure it’s a FIFA rule and would apply regardless of where he may end up.

[Trogdor]

16 minutes ago, Frosty said:

Not sure why you’re amazed, just taking prize money for final league position as one example of the earning difference between the clubs, last season Livi finishing 7th in their league and us ending up 8th in the Championship would have seen them earning over 8 times more than us.

It’s a slippery slope for any club to be paying the wage level for the league above when they’re not yet in it. Mullin is 31 in September so will have no resale value too.

I think it’s unlikely Livi are trying to get us to pay a fee to sign a player out of contract in a few months but would have thought they’d be pushing to get us to pay a higher proportion of his wages in light of his performances and importance to us - it’s what I’d expect us to do if the roles were reversed.

Would be surprised if we don’t reach agreement to extend the loan for the rest of the season as unless Livi have an alternative loan/sale option they’d be paying all of his wages. Whether we sign him for next season will depend on his wage expectations, the reality of someone paying them for a soon to be 31 year old with a limited career CV and most importantly for us what Division we are in next season.

Prize money is only part of the equation though.

I'd argue last season isn't really representative as we finished at a low ebb and Livingston a high one.  Admittedly Livingston are doing even better this season.

The broader point is right though that their prize money is a decent multiple of ours. That being said, why I'm amazed is for first team players I would expect to see that multiple. For a squad player compared to one of our first teamers not to the same degree.

I do genuinely wonder if they are in fact stretching beyond their means. Especially with chat about needing money (c.£200k) for VAR and to make a repayment on the covid loan from the Scottish Government this season. Hence my reference to administration part 3. 

Edited January 28, 2023 by Trogdor

[GaryMc93]

15 minutes ago, Iain said:

Is it only Scottish clubs that are affected? I thought the two clubs rule was global? It certainly stopped us loaning a player from Coventry a few years back.

Essentially he can't play for any team that has a similar league season to us i.e. Aug-May but could move to Ireland for example as their season run Feb-Nov. 

Not that I see him moving away from the Glasgow area as him and his partner seem settled and also has a young son. to think about rather than himself. 

[Thumper]

1 hour ago, Trogdor said:

I'm still amazed Livi are paying squad players twice what we pay first teamers. They must be teetering toward administration number 3. Maybe that's why they are playing hardball. Every penny is a prisoner.

They're fourth in the SPL.. That's Europe territory. Ayr have historically had one of the lowest budgets in this league, not unrelated to having a lower-than-average gate. Add to that West Lothian Council's predilection for leaving brown bags full of banknotes under benches at Almondvale and it's not a difficult equation.

[Trogdor]

8 minutes ago, Thumper said:

They're fourth in the SPL.. That's Europe territory. Ayr have historically had one of the lowest budgets in this league, not unrelated to having a lower-than-average gate. Add to that West Lothian Council's predilection for leaving brown bags full of banknotes under benches at Almondvale and it's not a difficult equation.

It's maybe a perception thing on my part. I've always thought of Livi as a small club. They have punched above their weight in the top league for the last 5 years. Whilst we have have stopped yo-yo ing into the sea side league.

[Finlay21]

19 minutes ago, Trogdor said:

Prize money is only part of the equation though.

Correct , they get much more money through their gates than we do , they get a share of 80% of TV money ( we get a share of 20%) sponsorship intake is likely a good deal more than ours since they are getting TV coverage every week ( highlights ) he was a decent signing  for them when he signed so likely got a lucrative offer of wages when signing that likely could not be lowered just because he became a squad player rather than a starter 

Edited January 28, 2023 by Finlay21

[itzdrk]

1 hour ago, AyrExile said:

Is he against a move to England? There seems to be a bit of interest from league 2 clubs amongst players in our division. Being at the top of the league has brought more scouts to our games. Surprised he hasn't been linked and wages certainly won't be a problem down there.

He is a 29 year old winger, clubs in England just wont. 

[Frosty]

The bottom team in the Premiership will earn double the prize money of the winner of the Championship and that’s just one income stream for them so it shouldn’t be surprising even their squad players will be significantly out earning our first teamers.

There’s certainly factors in our favour in securing Mullin for the rest of the season and beyond - his age, generally underwhelming CV and the reality that he’s at the stage of his career when his wages will be reducing rather than staying at their current level are a few and he does seem to be enjoying his time with us although that tends to be one of the least relevant factors in a player’s decision making.

[Frosty]

2 minutes ago, itzdrk said:

He is a 29 year old winger, clubs in England just wont. 

He’s 31 in September 

[Thumper]

3 minutes ago, Frosty said:

He’s 31 in September 

He's 29 until he's 31.

[itzdrk]

5 minutes ago, Frosty said:

He’s 31 in September 

sorry aye, birthday just after he joined. 

[North British 2]

13 minutes ago, Finlay21 said:

Correct , they get much more money through their gates than we do , they get a share of 80% of TV money ( we get a share of 20%) sponsorship intake is likely a good deal more than ours since they are getting TV coverage every week ( highlights ) he was a decent signing  for them when he signed so likely got a lucrative offer of wages when signing that likely could not be lowered just because he became a squad player rather than a starter 

Edited 7 minutes ago by Finlay21

Ross County gave him huge money to get him away from Livingston in the first place,  so the bar has been set pretty high for a number of years . This conundrum we find ourself's in will be repeated again and again moving forward . We are a victim of our own success to an extent , if we were out the cup and sitting mid table this conversation wouldn't be taking place. We are going to have to realise that as we grow as a club these are the numbers we will have to pay to maintain our position and to push forward .

On Livingston they are punching above their weight to even be in the Premiership,  they  are a Diddy club , Meadowbank Thitle in a flash suit . They have however seized their opportunity and as a result have 5,000 Hearts fans arriving shortly for a game . That's big bucks and it's where we aspire to be .

[Richey Edwards]

That performance last night was some buzz. Still buzzing about it. What a team. 

[Trogdor]

11 minutes ago, Richey Edwards said:

That performance last night was some buzz. Still buzzing about it. What a team. 

100%. I missed the pummeling of Queens Park so I enjoyed last night quite a lot. It was good to see some of the squad in amongst the goals.

Last night also shows why Dipo is much more than a goalscorer. His hold up and link up play is exceptional. 

[rgreig]

38 minutes ago, North British 2 said:

We are going to have to realise that as we grow as a club these are the numbers we will have to pay to maintain our position and to push forward .

I think this is a good point. For the player himself, I cannot see why he would now sign any contract that reduces his wages for the rest of the season. So we can't sign him now and I can see why Livingston would be pushing us to pay more of his wages given how big an impact he has had for us. If they do genuinely need to save every penny then I would hope that a compromise could be reached however.

I don't think it's necessarily a huge amount of money. Let's assume we currently are paying 500 a week for him on loan (just making that figure up), and they want us to pay 1500. There are roughly 16 weeks of the season left so that would be 16k delta. I think the prize money delta between 3rd and 4th is 75k and based on his contributions so far I think he could be pivotal to that.

More generally, it is clear that creative players like Chalmers and Mullin are going to challenge our wage structure. Bringing in players and being able to sell them on will be key to changing the level of our playing budget (e.g. Akinyemi but we need to see that happening more regularly).

[Thumper]

Ultimately the club's league success is, like everyone else, going to very closely correlated with its wage bill. That's just how football operates. The playing budget is going to have to treble if the club ever gets promoted and doesn't want immediately sent back down anyway. The question is whether it starts here, and what that's going to mean to dressing room morale.

[No_Problemo]

Or we call their bluff and say they can take him back, and they then have his entire wage to contend with if they do…

[Thumper]

20 minutes ago, Richey Edwards said:

That performance last night was some buzz. Still buzzing about it. What a team. 

The great thing about Ayr putting in some of their best performances in Friday night games is that the whole thing gets high-quality professional recording. You can go back and watch the whole of the slaughter at Tanndice any time for the rest of your life, instead of needing to hope some guy caught the good bits on his camera phone and hasn't had his YouTube suspended.