The Ultimate Super Ayr Thread

[Finlay21]

20 minutes ago, rb123! said:

True, however at the time we had a mostly successful team on the park in a competitive league with strong attendances boosted by big away crowds, along with well functioning in-house shop and hospitality so you would have thought some of the costs would have been able to be recouped, maybe not though.

Dave Smith did talk about us not utilising income streams in comparison to other clubs, would be interesting to know what other income streams he's thinking about.

shop and hospitality have only been going for just over 2/3  years , shop and hospitality were leased  out previously, catering at away end and north terrace has been leased and still is for around 5 years now , crowds and income in last 4/5 seasons has not covered costs , Lachlan practically covered all shortfalls and as Dave Smith says if it was not for Lachlan’s loans the club would not be here 

[rb123!]

9 minutes ago, WATTOO said:

I think we've been very poor in the cashing in on players side of things in relation to our peers, we never seem to get any funds from transfers and Gary Teale to Wigan was probably the last decent wedge of cash that we received.

Other clubs seem to bring in the odd £100k here or £200k there but in the past 20 years we seem to always lose our decent players for nothing, although I suppose we were at a lower level for a while with a squad full of donkeys at times !!

Hopefully with longer contracts and a higher club profile things like that will now change.

Definitely, with Rose, Harvie, Smith, Crawford, Forrest and Shankland we could have had probably near/around £1m if we'd sold all those for a fee, instead we got a whopping £0.

 

16 minutes ago, Ayr23 said:

From that I thought about pre and post match income from a social club/bar, perhaps like Dunfermline's in their main stand (far bigger than our hospitality suite). This is something that is already being addressed with the new Somerset Hub.

I'm sure I read something about office space in the North Terracing when it gets developed, so there's that too. New hospitality suites will have to be built if a roof goes over the North Terracing, so more income through improved hospitality too.

If we move to a synthetic park, perhaps leasing that out sustainably so that it brings in cash without wearing it down prematurely.

There's also the Black and White TV service now.

Just a few ideas.

 

Yeah think the astro could be the defining one, we must pay a fortune just now renting out astro 4 days a week for 1st team training and then few nights during the week for the academy. 

If we had astro all that training would be in house meaning no rental fees for pitches, would still be fees involved on astro upkeep etc, floodlights and staffing to have stadium open. Would perhaps be nice touch for academy to have their own changing facilities constructed at Somerset too if they ended up based at Somerset

[Trogdor]

1 hour ago, itzdrk said:

They were over £2million afaik. 

Directors loans were about £1.5m of which Lachlan was the vast majority at c.£1.2m.

Balance sheet should look a lot healthier although you won't see it in the next set of published accounts it should be the one after.

We might even be in net asset territory with Skyline Drifter unable to call us insolvent. 

[Rodders1910]

shop and hospitality have only been going for just over 2/3  years , shop and hospitality were leased  out previously, catering at away end and north terrace has been leased and still is for around 5 years now , crowds and income in last 4/5 seasons has not covered costs , Lachlan practically covered all shortfalls and as Dave Smith says if it was not for Lachlan’s loans the club would not be here 

Has the lease for catering on the North terrace been extended or is it a case of an extremely long lease originally being given? Was hoping that the van would be getting binned for our own catering

[Trogdor]

I've never been a fan of astroturf. It needs to be looked after and replaced periodically (I'm not sure what the useful life is) otherwise you end up with a worn carpet like some clubs still use where the pitch is a farce. In those instances the ball doesn't even bounce as it should.

That being said, if we're shelling out a fortune for training and we could save that and generate income from others using it, it maybe makes economic sense. Our pitch has looked a shambles this season.

[itzdrk]

26 minutes ago, Trogdor said:

Directors loans were about £1.5m of which Lachlan was the vast majority at c.£1.2m.

Balance sheet should look a lot healthier although you won't see it in the next set of published accounts it should be the one after.

We might even be in net asset territory with Skyline Drifter unable to call us insolvent. 

Hopefully the words ongoing concern vanish!

[rb123!]

45 minutes ago, Trogdor said:

I've never been a fan of astroturf. It needs to be looked after and replaced periodically (I'm not sure what the useful life is) otherwise you end up with a worn carpet like some clubs still use where the pitch is a farce. In those instances the ball doesn't even bounce as it should.

That being said, if we're shelling out a fortune for training and we could save that and generate income from others using it, it maybe makes economic sense. Our pitch has looked a shambles this season.

I would say the best one i've seen is Alloa's

[Lochwood]

You can stick your Astro where the sun don’t shine

[Iain]

Should go retro and get turf like they had at Annfield.

[Ayr23]

You can stick your Astro where the sun don’t shine

That has always been my view. But the pitch has been in shocking nick the last couple seasons, so we either need to relay the turf or improve whatever we are doing to the current surface. I'd say that the quality of the astro is always improving and getting more grass like. It's all about what you're willing to spend.

[Rjc-1988]

I've never been a fan of astroturf. It needs to be looked after and replaced periodically (I'm not sure what the useful life is) otherwise you end up with a worn carpet like some clubs still use where the pitch is a farce. In those instances the ball doesn't even bounce as it should.
That being said, if we're shelling out a fortune for training and we could save that and generate income from others using it, it maybe makes economic sense. Our pitch has looked a shambles this season.

I hate Astro not surprising having witnessed a marked deterioration in the quality of the Palmerston surface since its installation a few years back. Notwithstanding all the economic arguments it is the spectacle that really suffers when you get landed with a dreadful shiny surface. It makes it worse when our visitors adapt to it better than we do (Ayr being the exception!!).That said some of the Astros are decent - the test for me is does the Astro make you think you are watching a game on grass? Stark’s Park is first class and when I watched our game recently I had to do a “second take” to remind myself it was Astro.

[super_carson]

One of the Queens fans may be able to correct me, but I suspect their pitch is quite old now.  I think that some of the newer ones like at Raith or Alloa are much better quality.  I get that in the summer a grass pitch is far better but the reality is we don't have the weather to support a high-quality grass pitch in winter or the cash to fund one of these hybrid pitches that you get in the Premier League or at Murrayfield.  I get that it won't be popular with traditionalists but a high quality artificial pitch would provide a consistent playing surface with more pros than cons.  

Ayr also train on an artificial pitch, so training on the same surface that we play on would make it easier for preparation.  The weather would also be less of an issue (unless it's extremely cold) in terms of postponements and it could be used to reduce the cost of renting training facilities throughout the club.  It could even be rented out to provide an income stream.

Another thing to consider is that constantly switching between an artificial and grass pitch can actually contribute to injuries.  Granted I'm not too sure how relevant this would be for footballers and Ayr in particular, but throughout my rugby career I've had physios say that training on an artificial pitch then playing on a grass one can lead to some small niggling injuries in the ankles/hamstrings for some players.  Certainly I've always preferred to stick to one surface.  

I think Scottish football needs to adapt it's thinking.  We just don't have good enough weather in the winter months and we're not going to move to a summer season.  Artificial pitches are quite common in other northern European countries for that reason.  Now obviously this all needs to be tempered against the cost of maintenance and repairs to an artificial, but I suspect the benefit would outweigh the cost.  

 

[Rjc-1988]

One of the Queens fans may be able to correct me, but I suspect their pitch is quite old now.  I think that some of the newer ones like at Raith or Alloa are much better quality.  I get that in the summer a grass pitch is far better but the reality is we don't have the weather to support a high-quality grass pitch in winter or the cash to fund one of these hybrid pitches that you get in the Premier League or at Murrayfield.  I get that it won't be popular with traditionalists but a high quality artificial pitch would provide a consistent playing surface with more pros than cons.  
Ayr also train on an artificial pitch, so training on the same surface that we play on would make it easier for preparation.  The weather would also be less of an issue (unless it's extremely cold) in terms of postponements and it could be used to reduce the cost of renting training facilities throughout the club.  It could even be rented out to provide an income stream.
Another thing to consider is that constantly switching between an artificial and grass pitch can actually contribute to injuries.  Granted I'm not too sure how relevant this would be for footballers and Ayr in particular, but throughout my rugby career I've had physios say that training on an artificial pitch then playing on a grass one can lead to some small niggling injuries in the ankles/hamstrings for some players.  Certainly I've always preferred to stick to one surface.  
I think Scottish football needs to adapt it's thinking.  We just don't have good enough weather in the winter months and we're not going to move to a summer season.  Artificial pitches are quite common in other northern European countries for that reason.  Now obviously this all needs to be tempered against the cost of maintenance and repairs to an artificial, but I suspect the benefit would outweigh the cost.  
 

Agree with all of that.

It all comes down to quality - if I was watching football every week on a pitch of equal quality to Starks Park then it would all make sense given the underlying economics. The problem is when you have the misfortune of investing in a surface that is poor to start with and markedly deteriorates every year...........the outlook isn’t great.

[GaryMc93]

Wonder if he’ll consider looking for a sponsorship deal for naming rights for the stadium. 9 or 10 other clubs in Scotland have done it and I’m sure most of their fans will still refer to the stadium by its original name. Traditionalists might not agree but it's not as if any Ayr fan would suddenly stop calling it Somerset.

[Ayr23]

Wonder if he’ll consider looking for a sponsorship deal for naming rights for the stadium. 9 or 10 other clubs in Scotland have done it and I’m sure most of their fans will still refer to the stadium by its original name. Traditionalists might not agree but it's not as if any Ayr fan would suddenly stop calling it Somerset.

Again, something previously I was dead set against. Now though I wouldn't mind it, but I'd like Somerset Park to remain in the name if possible.

'SV Bitcoin Somerset Park' (or whatever sponsorship you like).

I really think we need to be open minded to change if we want to push on. The hiring out of an astro park, and stadium sponsorship could easy bring in a few hundred thousand quid over a season.

[HMIP]

Genuinely puzzled that some fans seemed unaware of the level of debt in the club.  I get that it is/was soft loans to individuals rather than the banks, but the existence of these loans has been well known for years.  Worth remembering that the club was in serious financial trouble when the Camerons took over from Barr, so could be that a significant proportion of the debt was built up during those years.   But for sure we’ve never been able to develop income streams to fully cover costs with Lachlan consistently putting in money to make up the shortfall.  Folk who’ve accused him of asset stripping over the years ought to take a good look at themselves.

[Skyline Drifter]

7 hours ago, Ayr23 said:

Again, something previously I was dead set against. Now though I wouldn't mind it, but I'd like Somerset Park to remain in the name if possible.

'SV Bitcoin Somerset Park' (or whatever sponsorship you like).

I really think we need to be open minded to change if we want to push on. The hiring out of an astro park, and stadium sponsorship could easy bring in a few hundred thousand quid over a season.

At this level? Very doubtful. Certainly not on a commercial value basis. If you have a Calvin Ayre type who wants to throw cash at it charitably then maybe.

In terms of pitch hire I find the direct financial benefits are massively overstated. The benefits of a plastic pitch are more in not losing gate and hospitality to postponements on a grass pitch and potentially in saving money you would otherwise spend on hiring training grounds rather than actual hires of it. People used to talk about being able to bring in a six figure sum with a plastic pitch but that was in the early days when there were half a dozen in Scotland. Now every second school has one. Unless you actively ground share with another club and charge them rent for it I doubt you'd get £25k a season hiring out a plastic pitch for public use. And the more you do it the more you limit its life too.

It's hard to imagine anyone paying anywhere near a six figure sum to name the stadium at clubs like Ayr or Palmerston where there's no recent top level history. I had a bit of a Google there to see if there's anything in the public domain about the value of the naming rights at Livingston, Dundee or Partick Thistle who are three very obvious ones who have done it. Closest I could find was reference to the Thistle one with Energy Check being worth "a six figure sum over 3 years". I suspect it's probably about £50k per annum at a guess and their profile is higher than yours or ours.

Not knocking it, but I don't think you'd get anywhere near "a few hundred thousand quid per season" out of a plastic pitch and naming deal. £50k - £100k absolute top whack, probably low end of that. Of course any money for a naming deal is more or less free money. It doesn't cost anything except some signage changes and changing your headed paper! There is a massively significant cost in converting to a plastic pitch if it's not grant funded. You'd probably be looking at £0.5m (Edit - Of course if your owner happens to also own a building firm the costs will be significantly lower!).

Edited January 14, 2021 by Skyline Drifter

[Ayr23]

At this level? Very doubtful. Certainly not on a commercial value basis. If you have a Calvin Ayre type who wants to throw cash at it charitably then maybe.
In terms of pitch hire I find the direct financial benefits are massively overstated. The benefits of a plastic pitch are more in not losing gate and hospitality to postponements on a grass pitch and potentially in saving money you would otherwise spend on hiring training grounds rather than actual hires of it. People used to talk about being able to bring in a six figure sum with a plastic pitch but that was in the early days when there were half a dozen in Scotland. Now every second school has one. Unless you actively ground share with another club and charge them rent for it I doubt you'd get £25k a season hiring out a plastic pitch for public use. And the more you do it the more you limit it's life too.
It's hard to imagine anyone paying anywhere near a six figure sum to name the stadium at clubs like Ayr or Palmerston where there's no recent top level history. I had a bit of a Google there to see if there's anything in the public domain about the value of the naming rights at Livingston, Dundee or Partick Thistle who are three very obvious ones who have done it. Closest I could find was reference to the Thistle one with Energy Check being worth "a six figure sum over 3 years". I suspect it's probably about £50k per annum at a guess and their profile is higher than yours or ours.
Not knocking it, but I don't think you'd get anywhere near "a few hundred thousand quid per season" out of a plastic pitch and naming deal. £50k - £100k absolute top whack, probably low end of that. Of course any money for a naming deal is more or less free money. It doesn't cost anything except some signage changes and changing your headed paper! There is a massively significant cost in converting to a plastic pitch if it's not grant funded. You'd probably be looking at £0.5m (Edit - Of course if your owner happens to also own a building firm the costs will be significantly lower!).

All fair and valid points. There was no research on my part on the number I plucked out. Obviously it will cost a lot to install, but we must spend a small fortune on renting school pitches and facilities from the council though. So there's the money saved from that, and as I said in an earlier post, the pitch can be let out sustainably so not to drastically increase wear.

On the naming of the stadium, I guess it's all about who is wanting to sponsor it. A big name could be willing to splash the cash, particularly for a stadium like Somerset that is so often spoken about as a favourite of away fans, and has even recently been mentioned on national TV for this reason, and has had widespread publicity on social media for this too. We also have an obscure following from people who are into Bitcoin, so there's that overseas market that companies could be tapping into through stadium advertising.

[Lochwood]

South ayrshire is awash with Astro pitches and more being built with new schools being built etc, it doesent cost anything like what people on here are posting, my god if boys clubs can afford it get a grip on your costings Saving hundreds of thousands and making the same get a grip. Just look at livingstone this week frozen and flooded pitch in one week not the be all people are making out.

Somerset used to be one of the best playing surfaces in Scotland that’s why for many years Albeit a long time ago England used to train on it when they came up,
the pitch needs proper regular maintenance and investment in it relaying turf and drainage etc when was the last time that was done and a lot cheaper then S——y Astro, god help us if we go that route.

[AyrExile]

1 hour ago, HMIP said:

Genuinely puzzled that some fans seemed unaware of the level of debt in the club.  I get that it is/was soft loans to individuals rather than the banks, but the existence of these loans has been well known for years.  Worth remembering that the club was in serious financial trouble when the Camerons took over from Barr, so could be that a significant proportion of the debt was built up during those years.   But for sure we’ve never been able to develop income streams to fully cover costs with Lachlan consistently putting in money to make up the shortfall.  Folk who’ve accused him of asset stripping over the years ought to take a good look at themselves.

Don’t think the club actually owed any cash when Cameron took over. They did inherit a very large wage bill that was gonna exceed income and were unable to manage or cut it quickly enough. This along with ignoring the tax man resulted in a large deficit being run up