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We were promoted with a strong team that we somehow managed to hold together last Summer.  An incompetent standard of goalkeeping all season and some pretty dreadful defending pre-Bell signing should have cost us, but also disguised the underlying strength of the team.  We went out last summer and brought in 4 quality signings (Smith, Harvie, Murdoch and Doohan)  that largely addressed our specific defensive woes of the previous season.  In hindsight, it’s not that surprising we had a strong season.   
I compare that to the current team and I’m staggered anyone could believe we are in a stronger position. We’re wafer thin on numbers, have at least 3 perma-crocks we know we can’t rely on to play every week, young players that are unproven at this level, and others who are probably a season or 2 past their best.  I hope it all comes together for us, but I think any objective assessment would say we look terribly vulnerable going into the new season.

No one is denying the squad is weaker this time from last season. That’s a different point entirely though.

As a club finishing 4th in the Championship puts you in a better position compared to finishing 1st in League One.
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3 minutes ago, D'Jaffo said:


No one is denying the squad is weaker this time from last season. That’s a different point entirely though.

As a club finishing 4th in the Championship puts you in a better position compared to finishing 1st in League One.

That’s an absurd argument.  You’re strength is the team on the park.  That’ll be the reason Falkirk are in League 1 and Dundee Utd are in the championship.  The strength of their clubs didnt count for anything.  There have been many clubs who thought they were too big to get relegated and didn’t see the truth until it was too late.  

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4 minutes ago, Mgc1910 said:

We were promoted with a strong team that we somehow managed to hold together last Summer.  An incompetent standard of goalkeeping all season and some pretty dreadful defending pre-Bell signing should have cost us, but also disguised the underlying strength of the team.  We went out last summer and brought in 4 quality signings (Smith, Harvie, Murdoch and Doohan)  that largely addressed our specific defensive woes of the previous season.  In hindsight, it’s not that surprising we had a strong season.   

I compare that to the current team and I’m staggered anyone could believe we are in a stronger position. We’re wafer thin on numbers, have at least 3 perma-crocks we know we can’t rely on to play every week, young players that are unproven at this level, and others who are probably a season or 2 past their best.  I hope it all comes together for us, but I think any objective assessment would say we look terribly vulnerable going into the new season.

To be fair at this exact time last season we hadn't signed any of Doohan, Murdoch or Smith and we didnt know if Harvie was any good.  Depending who you spoke to Shankland and Rose among other were proven failures at this level and would get found out, while Bell, Adams and a few others would be completely and embarassingly out their depth.  

Personally i'd say the club is in a stronger position than it was a yeat ago, which again was a much stronger position than the year before that.

The actual team probably won't be as good though, but you could probably say that about most teams who have just lost a 34 goal striker.  It should however be good enough to stay up and I guess you then wait and see what the next year brings as things can change pretty quickly....

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6 minutes ago, Mgc1910 said:

We were promoted with a strong team that we somehow managed to hold together last Summer.  An incompetent standard of goalkeeping all season and some pretty dreadful defending pre-Bell signing should have cost us, but also disguised the underlying strength of the team.  We went out last summer and brought in 4 quality signings (Smith, Harvie, Murdoch and Doohan)  that largely addressed our specific defensive woes of the previous season.  In hindsight, it’s not that surprising we had a strong season.   

I compare that to the current team and I’m staggered anyone could believe we are in a stronger position. We’re wafer thin on numbers, have at least 3 perma-crocks we know we can’t rely on to play every week, young players that are unproven at this level, and others who are probably a season or 2 past their best.  I hope it all comes together for us, but I think any objective assessment would say we look terribly vulnerable going into the new season.

Hindsight is a wonderful thing.

I can clearly remember quite a few questioning Doohan and thought he'd be fine for backup but that we needed an experienced keeper.

Harvie also entered the team with a similar profile to Roscoe (as did Rose) so again I don't see how we can say one was going to be great where the other is a gamble.

I'd also say that Frank Ross is a known quantity similar to Murdoch last season and he does possess real quality with also a decent experience at the highest level.

Crawford and McDaid are also not regarded as any great loss by many of our supporters with only Shankland, Smith and Rose being real negatives but of course they are offset by the arrival of Doolan, Roscoe & Ross with the recall of Ferguson covering for Smith.

Being honest, I'm sure at the start of last season many people would have bitten your hand off for a striker such as Doolan.

I stick by my previous thoughts that we're in a far better position this season.........

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4 minutes ago, UpInTheAyr said:

Are we struggling to sign players if it's this Kelly on another loan? Sure McCall said in his last interview it wasn't a route he was wanting to go down

He's been saying all summer he would probably would have to go down the loan route, although its not his preference. 

 

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15 minutes ago, D'Jaffo said:


No one is denying the squad is weaker this time from last season. That’s a different point entirely though.

As a club finishing 4th in the Championship puts you in a better position compared to finishing 1st in League One.

Eh, it's really not. That's entirely the point he was making. You can be more optimistic about your status / standing in the game if you wish but if you are weaker as a squad (and the the loss of Shankland and Smith alone confirms that as they are two of the best at this level) then you cannot possible be in a "better place" than you were a year ago.

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3 minutes ago, Hursty said:

To be fair at this exact time last season we hadn't signed any of Doohan, Murdoch or Smith and we didnt know if Harvie was any good.  Depending who you spoke to Shankland and Rose among other were proven failures at this level and would get found out, while Bell, Adams and a few others would be completely and embarassingly out their depth.  

Personally i'd say the club is in a stronger position than it was a yeat ago, which again was a much stronger position than the year before that.

The actual team probably won't be as good though, but you could probably say that about most teams who have just lost a 34 goal striker.  It should however be good enough to stay up and I guess you then wait and see what the next year brings as things can change pretty quickly....

That’s a weak argument.  Most of our efforts to this point last season were spent retaining the players who got us promoted (Rose, Shankland, Crawford, McDaid, Forrest and Moore). Having done that, we went out and targeted specific areas we were weak (goalkeeper and both full backs) with Murdoch being an extra bonus.  Fair enough we didn’t know how good Shankland and Rose would be, but it was also clear that we were going up with a demonstrably stronger team than in our previous promotions under McCall and Reid.

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1 minute ago, Mgc1910 said:

That’s a weak argument.  Most of our efforts to this point last season were spent retaining the players who got us promoted (Rose, Shankland, Crawford, McDaid, Forrest and Moore). Having done that, we went out and targeted specific areas we were weak (goalkeeper and both full backs) with Murdoch being an extra bonus.  Fair enough we didn’t know how good Shankland and Rose would be, but it was also clear that we were going up with a demonstrably stronger team than in our previous promotions under McCall and Reid.

There's also the fact that we now have 2 part time teams in the league and some of our peers are having to cut their cloth due to financial restrictions, which as far as I'm concerned, gives us an even better chance of consolidating our position in this league.

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17 minutes ago, UpInTheAyr said:

Are we struggling to sign players if it's this Kelly on another loan? Sure McCall said in his last interview it wasn't a route he was wanting to go down

I'm not a huge fan of Loans myself, however if you have the opportunity to bring in a player who is potentially way above your level both from a playing and wage perspective, then you've got to jump at it.

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10 minutes ago, WATTOO said:

Hindsight is a wonderful thing.

I can clearly remember quite a few questioning Doohan and thought he'd be fine for backup but that we needed an experienced keeper.

Harvie also entered the team with a similar profile to Roscoe (as did Rose) so again I don't see how we can say one was going to be great where the other is a gamble.

I'd also say that Frank Ross is a known quantity similar to Murdoch last season and he does possess real quality with also a decent experience at the highest level.

Crawford and McDaid are also not regarded as any great loss by many of our supporters with only Shankland, Smith and Rose being real negatives but of course they are offset by the arrival of Doolan, Roscoe & Ross with the recall of Ferguson covering for Smith.

Being honest, I'm sure at the start of last season many people would have bitten your hand off for a striker such as Doolan.

I stick by my previous thoughts that we're in a far better position this season.........

Doohan was a gamble that paid off big time, no doubt.  I think the doubts over Doohan were due to the problems we had the previous season when we went with 2 inexperienced goalkeepers who turned out to be awful.  

I think you may also be gravely underestimating the value of holding together a successful, confident and hungry squad of players.  I’m sorry to see McDaid go but I think he didn’t really kick on and am genuinely surprised Dundee have taken him.  I’m sick hearing the Crawford argument.  He was a solid player who was arguably too similar to Murdoch and Docherty, but he was st the core of a midfield that finished 4th and has now stepped up to a level we haven’t been at for 40 years.  Anyone who thinks he won’t be a miss is a gold plated wingnut.

We can only cross our fingers on Doolan, but I am concerned that Partick fans seem pretty clear that he’s done.  

 

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If we bring in Kelly on loan then that’ll mean we’ll have 3 loans (once we confirm Doohan) which is exactly what we had at the end of last season.

I’ve not seen him play but he seems highly rated and also sounds like exactly what we need.

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If we bring in Kelly on loan then that’ll mean we’ll have 3 loans (once we confirm Doohan) which is exactly what we had at the end of last season.

I’ve not seen him play but he seems highly rated and also sounds like exactly what we need.
Only problem is he's a midget, 5ft 7, walking straight into the same issues we had at the end of last season.
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4 minutes ago, Mgc1910 said:

Doohan was a gamble that paid off big time, no doubt.  I think the doubts over Doohan were due to the problems we had the previous season when we went with 2 inexperienced goalkeepers who turned out to be awful.  

I think you may also be gravely underestimating the value of holding together a successful, confident and hungry squad of players.  I’m sorry to see McDaid go but I think he didn’t really kick on and am genuinely surprised Dundee have taken him.  I’m sick hearing the Crawford argument.  He was a solid player who was arguably too similar to Murdoch and Docherty, but he was st the core of a midfield that finished 4th and has now stepped up to a level we haven’t been at for 40 years.  Anyone who thinks he won’t be a miss is a gold plated wingnut.

We can only cross our fingers on Doolan, but I am concerned that Partick fans seem pretty clear that he’s done.  

 

I agree with you on Crawford as I think our whole style of play revolved around much of his work. As for Doohan, the Thistle fans I know think he'll be a great signing and also brilliant for the dressing room and bringing on our younger players.

Remember, we also have McCowan who could turn out to be anything, Ecrepont must also be nearing a first team start and is extremely highly regarded and who knows what McGuffie could do if given the chance.

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35 minutes ago, UpInTheAyr said:

Are we struggling to sign players if it's this Kelly on another loan? Sure McCall said in his last interview it wasn't a route he was wanting to go down

We don't have the finances sadly this season to compete with the majority of clubs around us for permanent signings, plus these kids on loan for a season could turn out to be head and shoulders above a lot of players in the championship so i'm willing to give them a chance. 

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