Best opposition players?

[1GregStewart]

So, as I said earlier , Soa  Paulo getting  destroyed here.

league 2 best 11 would get pumped at the old tennents soccer 6s never mind the lowest level full time teams (sorry, the championship)

look pal, these boys are in league 2 for a reason so calm down. 

As for goodwillie, he wouldn’t even be the best attacker in the championship. He’s always been over rated and is a long way from the player he was. He’s playing against cart horses FFS.

[Sao Paulo]

4 hours ago, Skyline Drifter said:

Then you are an idiot. But we already knew that. 

Goodwillie is an exceptional case playing at a level well below himself for non football reasons but seriously, St Mirren would cuff a best League 2 XI more often than not never mind throwing in the pick of players from elsewhere.

And Dobbie plays 90 mins just about every week. He lasts matches just fine (at least when Willo Flood doesnt kick him off the park anyway).

If my opinions were so manifestly stupid, you wouldn't feel compelled to write posts in the emphatic and personalised style you just have. 

[Muzza81]

Clyde fan in being idiot shocker. Just glad there’s no racial abuse involved this time tbh. 

[tamthebam]

I'm usually too busy cursing opposition players (and Edinburgh City ones for that matter) to notice them but I like Fleming in the Mo goal, Paton (when he's not taking a wee 5.9), McAllister (likewise) and the on loan Dallas looked pretty good for Stenny the other week. Clyde's Ally Love is also worth a mention despite certain problems... 

[Sao Paulo]

Difference between most others posting and me is that they've never seen half the players named in my XI on the other page. More importantly, I've watched every championship side this season. And, as it happens, many of the better players in the Championship have played against Clyde in recent memory. Or indeed played for us in recent memory. I wouldn't be making this kind of claim if I didn't have so wide a frame of reference.

In a one-off competitive match, controlled for fitness, I repeat: I'd fancy a select from our league this year. Most other seasons, it'd be a drubbing of course. But there happens to be a level of quality and experience in League 2 this season, at least in a smattering of individuals, that make me think it's been a rare season for us.

Any downplaying of Goodwillie's ability, as if there's just a pile of Championship players that good, is absurd. There isn't a player in the Championship who could play up front on his own and do what Goodwillie's done for us. If you paired him and McAllister, you'd have a level of movement and goal-threat that simply could not be bested by an equivalent pair in the Championship. If anyone had paid attention to Goodwillie's season, they wouldn't be naively commenting on how many they think their player would've scored. Stephen Dobbie certainly wouldn't have managed the same tally on part-time fitness, playing up-top alone; you'd absolutely ruin him if you isolated him like that.

I will say that St.Mirren, as a unit, have lifted the floor of quality in that league, whereas most others have been really middle-of-the-road; if not actually representing a slide in the league's quality from say 10, 15 years back. And that their side alone - without any swaps-in from elsewhere - would probably be the toughest to beat.

The likes of Dillon, Barr, McStay, Cogill, Boyle, Goodie, McAllister. Those lads, in footballing terms, don't need to be here. Circumstance has put them here; or they've decided against other offers.

[the philosopher]

8 hours ago, 1GregStewart said:

Did you really say that out loud?

the best of league 2 would beat the best of the championship?

what a load of utter horse shit. Please refrain from commenting in the future as you’ve not got a scooby.

I could not agree more.

[the philosopher]

17 minutes ago, Sao Paulo said:

Difference between most others posting and me is that they've never seen half the players named in my XI on the other page. More importantly, I've watched every championship side this season. And, as it happens, many of the better players in the Championship have played against Clyde in recent memory. Or indeed played for us in recent memory. I wouldn't be making this kind of claim if I didn't have so wide a frame of reference.

In a one-off competitive match, controlled for fitness, I repeat: I'd fancy a select from our league this year. Most other seasons, it'd be a drubbing of course. But there happens to be a level of quality and experience in League 2 this season, at least in a smattering of individuals, that make me think it's been a rare season for us.

Any downplaying of Goodwillie's ability, as if there's just a pile of Championship players that good, is absurd. There isn't a player in the Championship who could play up front on his own and do what Goodwillie's done for us. If you paired him and McAllister, you'd have a level of movement and goal-threat that simply could not be bested by an equivalent pair in the Championship. If anyone had paid attention to Goodwillie's season, they wouldn't be naively commenting on how many they think their player would've scored. Stephen Dobbie certainly wouldn't have managed the same tally on part-time fitness, playing up-top alone; you'd absolutely ruin him if you isolated him like that.

I will say that St.Mirren, as a unit, have lifted the floor of quality in that league, whereas most others have been really middle-of-the-road; if not actually representing a slide in the league's quality from say 10, 15 years back. And that their side alone - without any swaps-in from elsewhere - would probably be the toughest to beat.

The likes of Dillon, Barr, McStay, Cogill, Boyle, Goodie, McAllister. Those lads, in footballing terms, don't need to be here. Circumstance has put them here; or they've decided against other offers.

Dobbie  Queen of the South FC ( too good for  Scottish CHampton ship )

ie -Queen of the South  FC.

[BroadwoodBoy]

If a best XI from league 2 would beat the best of the championship then I really worry about the standard of the lower leagues. 

I am not the best to judge as rarely pay much attention to opposition players but nobody sticks in the memory of being particularly great. The only player that springs to mind is the boy that scored two against us for Edinburgh in the first half of the season, we got beat 3-2. He had a touch of class. 

Although when I read stenhousemuir supporters comments about Paton, I've genuinely got no memory of the guy. Not denying his ability, I just don't remember him. Compare that to the championship and I'm sure every team has a player or two that you think - he's got ability.

Just to finish off though, clubs of the championship - goodwillie is rotten so please don't try to sign him over the summer... 

 

 

[AMC13]

The best of League 2 against the best of the Championship is a really tough one to call but I guess we'll never know who would be the better of the two teams. If only they could come up with a league pyramid or something along those lines to find out what level these players play at.

[1320Lichtie]

Neil Parry

 

Jason Thomson

Thomas O’Brien

Iain Davidson

Ewan Murray

 

Declan McDaid

Scott Martin

Scott Robertson

Willis Furtado

 

Lewis Vaughan

Lawrence Shankland

 

Would beat a L2 11.

 

I would back Ayr/Raith/Ourselves and Alloa to beat a L2 11.

 

There really is a noticeable difference week to week in League 1 compared to League 2. The bottom 2/3 teams are shite but the rest, especially Ayr/Raith and Alloa are so far ahead of what we faced last year.

 

Suppose that’s why there’s a league structure.

 

Goodwillie is clearly a very good player but looking brilliant against Cowden/Berwick/Edinburgh City and the likes isn’t really anything. No doubt he could do a job in the Championship for somebody but could you imagine the tally some of the guys in the championship would be racking up playing at League 2 level? Dobbie would be bagging hat tricks every week.

 

No chance a L2 11 gets close to a Championship 11.

[Neilly]

I can't believe anyone has given Sao Paulo the time of day. The best of this league would get rag dolled by a Championship X1. It's not even for debate.

Absolutely ridiculous.

[haufdaft]

No idea about opposition players.

I only remember them if they have bright orange hair or are unusually fat or unusually thuggish.

[beaver1]

Jeez. Glad I started this thread.

[HoBNob]

14 hours ago, Skyline Drifter said:

Well yes he clearly is. And to be fair Atlis nominated a "Best" Championship XI which is not necessarily I suppose requiring a season long contribution but there are plenty of players who have impressed all season rather than one with about a month of form. What non footballing reasons incidentally?

Any team of the Championship which doesnt have Iain Vigurs in it is plain wrong too. He has been terrific all year.

As for Ashcroft I am possibly being unfair based on one game but I cant really see past his floundering after Dobbie and Kane in the 5-2 game. I would certainly take him given a chance but I would take Davis and McKenzie at St Mirren first.

He had a dig at the manager in the local newspaper, didn't play for a long time after that. 

 

He didn't play well in that 5-2 game but then nobody did against peak Dobbie, when he plays as well as he did that day he would've made any defender look shite. However it was just a one off and he's been absolutely rock solid the rest of the season, Dobbie has had a couple of quiet games against us this year but it's still obvious he's a great, I'll let Ashcroft off with that game, no Arguments about whether you prefer Davis and McKenzie, I don't think that Ashcroft would be miles away though and he deserves to be in that discussion. 

 

 

All of this means absolutely nothing though because the premises that a best eleven from this division would even beat Falkirk, let alone the best from the championship is fucking lunacy. 

 

 

[Sao Paulo]

Think a lot of you are going out of your way to ignore what I said about controlling for fitness. If a L2 select played a Championship select tomorrow, of course they'd get pumped. Someone mentioned the difference between Raith, Ayr and the rest of League 1. That isn't pure apples-and-apples quality; a lot gets back to how often they're training. Blindingly obvious, too, when you see the likes of Ayr over 90 minutes; the likes of Queen's Park and Albion often hardly get a touch.

They'd need have to the same kind of legs to get close to them. But if they did, I reckon it could go our way. Like I say, I've seen all the Championship lads, and I've seen all the L2 ones. The biggest gulf would be in midfield where league two genuinely doesn't have answers to the best of the Championship. But at the back and up-top? I'd be very confident we could hold our own and do some damage.
 

[Skyline Drifter]

18 minutes ago, Sao Paulo said:

Think a lot of you are going out of your way to ignore what I said about controlling for fitness. If a L2 select played a Championship select tomorrow, of course they'd get pumped. Someone mentioned the difference between Raith, Ayr and the rest of League 1. That isn't pure apples-and-apples quality; a lot gets back to how often they're training. Blindingly obvious, too, when you see the likes of Ayr over 90 minutes; the likes of Queen's Park and Albion often hardly get a touch.

They'd need have to the same kind of legs to get close to them. But if they did, I reckon it could go our way. Like I say, I've seen all the Championship lads, and I've seen all the L2 ones. The biggest gulf would be in midfield where league two genuinely doesn't have answers to the best of the Championship. But at the back and up-top? I'd be very confident we could hold our own and do some damage.
 

Nonsense. You are basing your argument on the illogical premise that everyone can be equal if they get fitter. In my experience part timers are often every bit as fit. They just arent as good. Thats why full time teams dont come in for them. There are always exceptions playing part time for non football reasons (like Goodwillie) or work reasons (like McAllister) but generally the reason most League Two players are League Two players is because thats their level.

[Sao Paulo]

18 minutes ago, Skyline Drifter said:

Nonsense. You are basing your argument on the illogical premise that everyone can be equal if they get fitter. In my experience part timers are often every bit as fit. They just arent as good. Thats why full time teams dont come in for them. There are always exceptions playing part time for non football reasons (like Goodwillie) or work reasons (like McAllister) but generally the reason most League Two players are League Two players is because thats their level.

The bold is absurd. And not a conclusion anyone reading what I've written could reasonably come to.

Just as absurd as your claim, based on experience, that part-timers are often every bit as fit. You've been repeating this rubbish for years too; I can recall you posting it back when we were, ahem, a barely-decent first division mob. Training two nights a week, with voluntary additions in your own time, doesn't come close to dedicating your entire working week to it. Anyone who's watched a midweek or end-of-season tie between a full-time and part-time team; or indeed a regular Saturday tie in league 1 or the championship would know at latest by the second-half which team was the full-time team and which team was the part-time team. Sure: you can get an exceptional group of part-time lads; and an exceptionally bad group of full time lads re their quality. But to hold-out that part-time and full-time players are often every bit as fit as one another has no basis in evidence whatever. And if I'm miles-out with my claim about a L2 select this year, you're even further so with that patter.

And if your next move is: 'What about this cup-time where [part-time team] played [full-time team] off the park?', spare me it. We beat Celtic 12 years ago; the cup is the cup. Reality is the next match. Or the season as a whole.

As for the 'generally players find their level in a league' line; I took care to explain-away why this season was exceptional. You've addressed only Goodwillie and McAllister in name. There's plenty more than that. If you're so confident that these lads deserve to be here, why don't we make it a bet? You tell me who among my lot won't either get an offer or actually be playing full-time next season? Either in the Championship or elsewhere. There will be some, of course. McAllister's not leaving Peterhead any time soon. But come on: you know that much about McStay, Boyle, Cogill... You'll want to show-off to a P&B audience, sure.

[1320Lichtie]

What evidence have you got that PT players are less fit? Seriously? We’ve never looked any less fit than the FT teams we’ve played this year, infact in the last two games we have played against FT teams we’ve scored in the 90th minute for a win and a draw.

 

You’re speaking absolute shite.

 

There maybe is a miniscule difference, but even then it wouldn’t make your average L2 player better or even anywhere closer to an average Championship player.

 

You’ve been stuck down there too long

[Sao Paulo]

Risible, grudging admission: "there maybe is a miniscule difference". 

If it was miniscule, there'd be no full-time footballers.

Arbroath are the best part-time side in Scotland, for my money. With one of the best managers. That they could take points from Ayr and Raith is utterly unsurprising and is hardly a counterpoint. You recall that I begun by saying a league-two select could get the better of a Championship select? You're making my argument for me if you're saying 'less good sides, over the piece, can sometimes beat better sides'. That's implicitly been my point to begin with; I've never said a L2 select, playing a season in the Championship, could best the likes of St.Mirren. No way they could. They'd more than hold their own if they were full-time, of course.

Arbroath have also been beaten, and twice in comprehensive fashion, by Ayr. Something you neglected to mention. The respective league positions of Ayr and Raith, likewise, you don't mention either.

You're a seasoned campaigner against my every opinion with no solid evidence of ever once being vindicated; you're angry on the internet bud, and you're presumably a grown-man. You and Skyline should meet-up.

[Gordon EF]

Fucking hell.

If we're getting to the realms of 'in football a poorer side can sometimes beat a better side' then of course there is a possibility that a L2 XI could beat a Championship XI or any lower league XI could beat a higher league XI on a given day but to say "The best XI from this league would very likely beat the best from the Championship if they were all full-time." is still fairly laughable. That clearly suggests the L2 lot are, on the whole, inherently better players. They're not.

There's a significant difference between L2 and L1 and a massive difference between L1 and the Championship so there's a big difference in how good players look when they play at different levels. Look at Andy Ryan. He was an absolute beast in L1, scoring 33 goals in 50 games. He's not even a regular starter for Dunfermline this season and has 2 goals in 15 appearances.

There are numerous examples of guys who've tore L2 or L1 apart then not really done the business when they've moved up to the championship.