Rivers of blood

[Fullerene]

18 hours ago, Brother Blades said:

I’m going to have to disagree with you on this one GD, our politics (from what I can gauge on here), are very similar, but I do really believe that exposure of how “we” used to think & act should be exposed for the lies they were & indeed still are.
It’s like banning Mein Kampf, I read that as a 12 year old & I am glad I did (and censorship didn’t preclude my reading of it), it exposed the entire “Aryan ideal” as a sham and made Adolf a figure of fun, even in my 12 year old mind.

Figure of fun.! The book is also known as "Me In Kamp 'F'".

[invergowrie arab]

All the racists out there taking comfort from this and using it to validate and promote their views will probably feel pretty foolish when the newsnight/radio4 intellegentsia point out the flaws in the racism case.

 

Stupid c***s

[Savage Henry]

All the racists out there taking comfort from this and using it to validate and promote their views will probably feel pretty foolish when the newsnight/radio4 intellegentsia point out the flaws in the racism case.
 
Stupid c***s

They’ll be slapping their thighs at their own foolishness, I don’t doubt.

[Jacksgranda]

12 hours ago, invergowrie arab said:

All the racists out there taking comfort from this and using it to validate and promote their views will probably feel pretty foolish when the newsnight/radio4 intellegentsia point out the flaws in the racism case.

 

Stupid c***s

As long as they aren't "experts", in which case their views can be rightly dismissed...

I remember this speech - and the fall out from it, i.e. Powell getting sacked - but it was only yesterday, listening to a discussion on Radio Ulster's Talkback - that I found out that the speech was against the introduction of the Race Relations Act, which outlawed discrimination on the grounds of race/colour. (Not sure if religion/gender was also included.)

That being the case, i.e. against the Race Relations Act, there is no defence for the speech, imo. Doesn't mean to say that this programme should be banned, though. Apparently the BBC didn't record the whole speech at the time, which is why an actor is reading it.

By all accounts Powell was a fiercely intelligent man, but I always got the impression he looked down on everyone else, and treated them with contempt.

[Mark Connolly]

4 minutes ago, Jacksgranda said:

As long as they aren't "experts", in which case their views can be rightly dismissed...

I remember this speech - and the fall out from it, i.e. Powell getting sacked - but it was only yesterday, listening to a discussion on Radio Ulster's Talkback - that I found out that the speech was against the introduction of the Race Relations Act, which outlawed discrimination on the grounds of race/colour. (Not sure if religion/gender was also included.)

That being the case, i.e. against the Race Relations Act, there is no defence for the speech, imo. Doesn't mean to say that this programme should be banned, though. Apparently the BBC didn't record the whole speech at the time, which is why an actor is reading it.

By all accounts Powell was a fiercely intelligent man, but I always got the impression he looked down on everyone else, and treated them with contempt.

So Jacob Rees-Mogg?

[Savage Henry]

As long as they aren't "experts", in which case their views can be rightly dismissed...

I remember this speech - and the fall out from it, i.e. Powell getting sacked - but it was only yesterday, listening to a discussion on Radio Ulster's Talkback - that I found out that the speech was against the introduction of the Race Relations Act, which outlawed discrimination on the grounds of race/colour. (Not sure if religion/gender was also included.)

That being the case, i.e. against the Race Relations Act, there is no defence for the speech, imo. Doesn't mean to say that this programme should be banned, though. Apparently the BBC didn't record the whole speech at the time, which is why an actor is reading it.

By all accounts Powell was a fiercely intelligent man, but I always got the impression he looked down on everyone else, and treated them with contempt.

 

Bloody know-nothing, good-for-nothing experts. Wish they’d do their research.

[Jacksgranda]

1 minute ago, Mark Connolly said:

So Jacob Rees-Mogg?

No, I don't think they're on the same intellectual plane.

(Not that J R-M has ever been on a plane, a flying machine, perhaps.)

[Ya Bezzer!]

Banning things never works, especially in political debate, where it only builds resentments from those who are refused a voice.

The speech should be there for anyone to read or hear and make their own minds up about.

Most, on either side, will not understand the context or references and simply use it to cement their own preexisting views.

Comparing Powell to Hitler is ridiculous and mentally feeble.  Hitler likely would not have supported some of the great liberal causes of the latter half of the 20th century - nuclear disarmament, the end of the death penalty, rights for homosexuals, nor spoken out about the slaughter of Kenyans.

Powell was a complex man, a British nationalist, but likely not a racist.  He was against mass immigration for the same reason he was anti American - he felt it was not in the British states interests to pursue certain policies.

As a left leaning Scottish nationalist who is all for multiculturalism and who was woken this morning by a 'Happy Vaisakhi' text from his significant other I don't agree with 'The Rivers of Blood' speech.  In fact the speech in itself seems completely irrelevant to modern life and modern politics.

The real relevance of the speech today is not so much the speech itself but how moronic modern political debate has become, when complex issues are simplified down into a revolting mish mash of semi truths and flat out lies, and the modern day obsession with 'offense' which is really only a pretext for the suppression of  debate.

[invergowrie arab]

19 minutes ago, Ya Bezzer! said:

Banning things never works, especially in political debate, where it only builds resentments from those who are refused a voice.

The speech should be there for anyone to read or hear and make their own minds up about.

Most, on either side, will not understand the context or references and simply use it to cement their own preexisting views.

Comparing Powell to Hitler is ridiculous and mentally feeble.  Hitler likely would not have supported some of the great liberal causes of the latter half of the 20th century - nuclear disarmament, the end of the death penalty, rights for homosexuals, nor spoken out about the slaughter of Kenyans.

Powell was a complex man, a British nationalist, but likely not a racist.  He was against mass immigration for the same reason he was anti American - he felt it was not in the British states interests to pursue certain policies.

As a left leaning Scottish nationalist who is all for multiculturalism and who was woken this morning by a 'Happy Vaisakhi' text from his significant other I don't agree with 'The Rivers of Blood' speech.  In fact the speech in itself seems completely irrelevant to modern life and modern politics.

The real relevance of the speech today is not so much the speech itself but how moronic modern political debate has become, when complex issues are simplified down into a revolting mish mash of semi truths and the modern day obsession with 'offense' which is really only a pretext for the suppression of  debate.

The speech isn't banned anywhere. People are complaining that the BBC are actively broadcasting it.

I'm against the promotion of and normalisation of racist ideas ,not because of some modern notion of offence but more because it ends up with people being discriminated against, dehumanised and in many cases killed.

 

[Ya Bezzer!]

2 minutes ago, invergowrie arab said:

The speech isn't banned anywhere. People are complaining that the BBC are actively broadcasting it.

I'm against the promotion of and normalisation of racist ideas ,not because of some modern notion of offence but more because it ends up with people being discriminated against, dehumanised and in many cases killed.

 

No one is going to be discriminated against, dehumanised or killed because of a radio programme broadcast on Radio 4. 

What you are actually terrorized of is any other point of view.  But the suppression of those views has only made things worse. 

People like Nigel Farage owe their whole political existence to this sort of left wing hysteria.

It only suggests you have no confidence in your own views or that the public cannot be convinced of what is right.

[NotThePars]

No one is going to be discriminated against, dehumanised or killed because of a radio programme broadcast on Radio 4. 
What you are actually terrorized of is any other point of view.  But the suppression of those views has only made things worse. 
People like Nigel Farage owe their whole political existence to this sort of left wing hysteria.
It only suggests you have no confidence in your own views or that the public cannot be convinced of what is right.

Nigel Farage owes his whole political existence to being repeatedly platformed and championed in the media and having his policies adopted by the Tory party. The left isn’t remotely as powerful as you seem to be suggesting it is and its really boring to blame people’s embrace of fascist and far right ideas on those actively opposing it. It’s liberals that have attempted to accommodate racist attitudes and conservatives that fucking love racism that allow these ghouls to exist.

And debating far right ideology isn’t a solution. Nick Griffin being ragdolled on Question Time didn’t kill the BNP, the rise of UKIP killed the BNP and its enabling by the media helped to further normalise anti immigration attitudes and allow Brexit. Richard Spencer didn’t tone down his white nationalism after being platformed everywhere, he receded from public life after being punched in the face and having his public appearances shut down by protestors.

[Savage Henry]

I wouldn’t have known anything about this if those who wish to suppress any speech they find distasteful hadn’t alerted to me it.

^^^ Wants a Radio Times subscription for his birthday.

[Ya Bezzer!]

6 hours ago, NotThePars said:

 

Nigel Farage owes his whole political existence to being repeatedly platformed and championed in the media and having his policies adopted by the Tory party. The left isn’t remotely as powerful as you seem to be suggesting it is and its really boring to blame people’s embrace of fascist and far right ideas on those actively opposing it. It’s liberals that have attempted to accommodate racist attitudes and conservatives that fucking love racism that allow these ghouls to exist.

Allow racism to exist?  Do we 'allow' rape and murder as well?   Racism has always and will always exist.  You don't 'allow' social attitudes to exist or not, they just are and are in a constant state of flux.  To suggest otherwise is actually a form of totalitarianism where populations are brainwashed into following a party line. 

The utopian left needs to pull it's head out of its arse and accept you don't finger wave racism away.  If racism is to decreases it will be through people living, working and socializing together over generations.  It will not be because of a Radio 4 programme or Farage appearing on Question Time. 

And actually, despite the right wing agenda of the current government, we've never lived in a more racially tolerant and better integrated country.  I live in a building with Pakistani and Nigerian neighbours.  Everyone gets on fine.  I work in a team that contains Chinese, Pakistani and African colleagues and everyone gets on fine.  Could I have imagined as a child that my future father in law might be an elderly Sikh gentleman?

I'm not complacent, I've seen racist attacks first hand perpetrated by a small minority of anti social reprobates, but I am absolutely confident we are moving in the correct direction as a general society and I am fed up with the pessimistic left shouting 'Facist' whenever they fail to convince the public through their own mistakes and stupidity.  To do so is actually deeply insulting to the many millions of people who were actually exterminated by real fascists. 

Imagine Clement Atlee had preferred to lecture the 1945 public over their overt racism instead of giving us the NHS and the welfare state?  Would either have got off the ground without the support of people who held racist views?  We need a left wing with optimism, big ideas and a commitment to making society better for everyone.  What we have is a left wing that castigates ordinary people as morally vile for not living up to some righteous litmus test and by doing so keeps itself out of power.

 

 

[dorlomin]

7 hours ago, NotThePars said:

Nigel Farage owes his whole political existence to being repeatedly platformed and championed in the media 

 

Dumb stupid proles would all be contented little remainers if the evil media had not brainswashed them into thinking otherwise eh.

We need to seize the means of production of the news and correct its content for the benefit of all. Eh. 

People chose which media to buy and watch, the media has an influence but people are also willing consumers. After the 911 began sales of The Mirror fell much faster than those of The Sun. Perhaps (probably) the laters more "patriotic" tone struck closer to the working class readership than manufactured it.

 

 

People buy papers that reflect their prejudice. (The same goes for talk radio and TV news). The world is a touch more complex than "bad media made Farage". 

[Fullerene]

The impression I got of Enoch Powell is that he didn't give a shit if his opinion offended anyone.

I think he was a great debater and I suspect if he was in a debating club he would happily champion whichever side went against popular opinion.

Having said that, I don't think he was a visionary.  He just enjoyed a good argument.

Although he was fiercely against the EU, I suspect he would despair at expressions such as "Brexit means Brexit" and "We shall have our cake and eat it."

[welshbairn]

6 minutes ago, Fullerene said:

The impression I got of Enoch Powell is that he didn't give a shit if his opinion offended anyone.

I think he was a great debater and I suspect if he was in a debating club he would happily champion whichever side went against popular opinion.

Having said that, I don't think he was a visionary.  He just enjoyed a good argument.

Although he was fiercely against the EU, I suspect he would despair at expressions such as "Brexit means Brexit" and "We shall have our cake and eat it."

A cuddly cove with a sharp edged tongue eh? Only a bit of banter. Maybe it's time to rehabilitate Oswald Mosley too, a Socialist at heart with a love for the common people. Unless they were Jewish of course.

[Jacksgranda]

15 minutes ago, Fullerene said:

The impression I got of Enoch Powell is that he didn't give a shit if his opinion offended anyone.

I think he was a great debater and I suspect if he was in a debating club he would happily champion whichever side went against popular opinion.

Having said that, I don't think he was a visionary.  He just enjoyed a good argument.

Although he was fiercely against the EU, I suspect he would despair at expressions such as "Brexit means Brexit" and "We shall have our cake and eat it."

That's certainly correct, although I think if you didn't agree with his opinion you were dismissed intellectually.

You're probably right with your fourth sentence, too, there is no doubt he would have constructed a logical and well argued reason for leaving rather than trite sound bites.

[welshbairn]

4 minutes ago, Jacksgranda said:

That's certainly correct, although I think if you didn't agree with his opinion you were dismissed intellectually.

You're probably right with your fourth sentence, too, there is no doubt he would have constructed a logical and well argued reason for leaving rather than trite sound bites.

He right hated a sound bite, just like Tony Blair.

"As I look ahead, I am filled with foreboding; like the Roman, I seem to see "the River Tiber foaming with much blood."

[Al666]

19 minutes ago, welshbairn said:

A cuddly cove with a sharp edged tongue eh? Only a bit of banter. Maybe it's time to rehabilitate Oswald Mosley too, a Socialist at heart with a love for the common people. Unless they were Jewish of course.

Sounds just like Jeremy Corbyn.

[DrewDon]

7 hours ago, NotThePars said:

 

Nigel Farage owes his whole political existence to being repeatedly platformed and championed in the media and having his policies adopted by the Tory party. The left isn’t remotely as powerful as you seem to be suggesting it is and its really boring to blame people’s embrace of fascist and far right ideas on those actively opposing it. It’s liberals that have attempted to accommodate racist attitudes and conservatives that fucking love racism that allow these ghouls to exist.

And debating far right ideology isn’t a solution. Nick Griffin being ragdolled on Question Time didn’t kill the BNP, the rise of UKIP killed the BNP and its enabling by the media helped to further normalise anti immigration attitudes and allow Brexit. Richard Spencer didn’t tone down his white nationalism after being platformed everywhere, he receded from public life after being punched in the face and having his public appearances shut down by protestors.

 

100000% this. The "snowflake lefties caused Trump/Brexit !!!1" 'analysis' is regularly trotted out without any real challenge, but seldom corroborated by much credible evidence.

I think the biggest problem with this whole exercise isn't that Powell was obviously a daft racist; it's that he was plain wrong. His speech and the predictions contained within just aren't worth the airtime.