SPFL/Pyramid Relegation and Promotion

[Robert James]

Should the FA and the SPFL review/change the promotion and relegation arrangements between Division 2 SPFL and the Highland/Lowland Leagues ? As momentum in the Pyramid is gathering pace, should the rules be changed so that the winners of the Highland/Lowland play-off between their 2 league champions, should be promoted automatically, rather than face a play-off with the bottom Division 2 club, who would therefore be automatically relegated to the HFL or SLL ?

Surely this would give further impetus to clubs currently playing in the pyramid, or seeking to join it ? Also clubs relegated from the SPFL would have a greater chance of returning if promotion didn't involve 2 separate play-off stages. 

 

[Karpaty]

There’s a more in depth thread on the League 2 forum on this mate.

[The Speaking Pariah]

8 hours ago, Robert James said:

Should the FA and the SPFL review/change the promotion and relegation arrangements between Division 2 SPFL and the Highland/Lowland Leagues ? As momentum in the Pyramid is gathering pace, should the rules be changed so that the winners of the Highland/Lowland play-off between their 2 league champions, should be promoted automatically, rather than face a play-off with the bottom Division 2 club, who would therefore be automatically relegated to the HFL or SLL ?

Surely this would give further impetus to clubs currently playing in the pyramid, or seeking to join it ? Also clubs relegated from the SPFL would have a greater chance of returning if promotion didn't involve 2 separate play-off stages. 

 

Yes, definitely.

Promotion/relegation between League Two and the Highland/Lowland Leagues should be the same as the promotion/relegation between the divisions within the SPFL.

10th in League Two automatic relegation, 9th goes into the play-offs.

If Lowland League is not split into East and West divisions (in order to make a three-way split at Tier 5), then the Lowland champions should automatically be promoted to League Two.

9th in League Two, Highland League champions,  2nd in Lowland League, along with the winners of a play-off between 2nd in Highland League and 3rd in Lowland League, to  play in a four way play off for the second promotion.

[Robert James]

9 hours ago, Karpaty said:

There’s a more in depth thread on the League 2 forum on this mate.

Thanks. I will have a look.

[Sergeant Wilson]

1 hour ago, The Speaking Pariah said:

Yes, definitely.

Promotion/relegation between League Two and the Highland/Lowland Leagues should be the same as the promotion/relegation between the divisions within the SPFL.

10th in League Two automatic relegation, 9th goes into the play-offs.

If Lowland League is not split into East and West divisions (in order to make a three-way split at Tier 5), then the Lowland champions should automatically be promoted to League Two.

9th in League Two, Highland League champions,  2nd in Lowland League, along with the winners of a play-off between 2nd in Highland League and 3rd in Lowland League, to  play in a four way play off for the second promotion.

LL Champions automatically promoted, what about the  HL Champions?

I actually have a suggestion. Take them out of the equation until they come up with a plan to have relegation from the HL.

[The Speaking Pariah]

1 hour ago, Sergeant Wilson said:

LL Champions automatically promoted, what about the  HL Champions?

I actually have a suggestion. Take them out of the equation until they come up with a plan to have relegation from the HL.

The Lowland League covers 80% of Scotland's population and the vast majority of clubs, senior and junior. Giving the LL an automatic promotion would be an recognition of this disparity. Ideally, a three way split (Lowland West, Lowland East, and Highland) would be the way ahead, but can't see the SFA or the SPFL ageeing to this.

[EdTheDuck]

6 minutes ago, The Speaking Pariah said:

The Lowland League covers 80% of Scotland's population and the vast majority of clubs, senior and junior. Giving the LL an automatic promotion would be an recognition of this disparity. Ideally, a three way split (Lowland West, Lowland East, and Highland) would be the way ahead, but can't see the SFA or the SPFL ageeing to this.

We're basing promotion on population now?  We should just pick teams for the Premier League based on that too, never mind all this merit shite, eh? The playoffs can easily be adjusted to take account of the, so far, mythical Western League (SFL 2 10th relegated, East, West & HFL champs in a playoff with SFL 2 9th for 2 spots, for example) without discriminating against the HFL clubs base on West Central Belt bias.

What Sergeant Wilson was driving at (I think) is the HFL's complete lack of enthusiasm for the pyramid, the clubs apparent indifference to promotion and their failure to even engage with the Northern Juniors about even the possibility of  a second division. They need a fucking rocket up their dinosaur arse, for sure, and the SPFL should be applying a shitload of pressure except they don't actually give a f**k about the arse end of football either.

[Robert James]

8 minutes ago, EdTheDuck said:

We're basing promotion on population now?  We should just pick teams for the Premier League based on that too, never mind all this merit shite, eh? The playoffs can easily be adjusted to take account of the, so far, mythical Western League (SFL 2 10th relegated, East, West & HFL champs in a playoff with SFL 2 9th for 2 spots, for example) without discriminating against the HFL clubs base on West Central Belt bias.

What Sergeant Wilson was driving at (I think) is the HFL's complete lack of enthusiasm for the pyramid, the clubs apparent indifference to promotion and their failure to even engage with the Northern Juniors about even the possibility of  a second division. They need a fucking rocket up their dinosaur arse, for sure, and the SPFL should be applying a shitload of pressure except they don't actually give a f**k about the arse end of football either.

Perhaps the SJFC should carry out a 2nd 'ballot', by canvassing North Region Junior Clubs to see if they want promotion to the HFL (thereby joining the pyramid).  Based upon the fact however that no North junior club has applied to join since 2009 when Formartine, Strathspey & Turriff were elected, and Banks O'Dee rejected, it would appear that none are interested. Even SFA Licensed club Banks have publicly stated (during the last few months) that they no longer seek HFL membership.

 Furthermore no clubs from the North Caledonian League  have joined the HFL since Fort William  (1985/86) and Wick Academy (1996/97). Before that it was Sutherland based, Brora Rangers way back in 1965/66.

So don't blame the Highland League if there are no current clubs (in the 2 regions covered by the above) who seek promotion.  In my view, canvassing north Junior and NCL clubs would produce a resolutely negative response.

[Sergeant Wilson]

6 hours ago, EdTheDuck said:

We're basing promotion on population now?  We should just pick teams for the Premier League based on that too, never mind all this merit shite, eh? The playoffs can easily be adjusted to take account of the, so far, mythical Western League (SFL 2 10th relegated, East, West & HFL champs in a playoff with SFL 2 9th for 2 spots, for example) without discriminating against the HFL clubs base on West Central Belt bias.

What Sergeant Wilson was driving at (I think) is the HFL's complete lack of enthusiasm for the pyramid, the clubs apparent indifference to promotion and their failure to even engage with the Northern Juniors about even the possibility of  a second division. They need a fucking rocket up their dinosaur arse, for sure, and the SPFL should be applying a shitload of pressure except they don't actually give a f**k about the arse end of football either.

It was. The HFL was included despite all that, but the juniors weren't accommodated at all. I know the didn't offer much either, but the hurried implementation has created anomalies now...and about 100 threads on here. Div will be the only person that's pleased by it all.

[Broomhill Ultra]

The Lowland League covers 80% of Scotland's population and the vast majority of clubs, senior and junior. Giving the LL an automatic promotion would be an recognition of this disparity. Ideally, a three way split (Lowland West, Lowland East, and Highland) would be the way ahead, but can't see the SFA or the SPFL ageeing to this.

A three way split with one league of 10 as the tier above is stupid and is going to lead to either too many relegations for such a small league or a too complicated playoff system. Promotion for all champions is surely a basic starting point?

[EdTheDuck]

15 hours ago, Robert James said:

Perhaps the SJFC should carry out a 2nd 'ballot', by canvassing North Region Junior Clubs to see if they want promotion to the HFL (thereby joining the pyramid).  Based upon the fact however that no North junior club has applied to join since 2009 when Formartine, Strathspey & Turriff were elected, and Banks O'Dee rejected, it would appear that none are interested. Even SFA Licensed club Banks have publicly stated (during the last few months) that they no longer seek HFL membership.

 Furthermore no clubs from the North Caledonian League  have joined the HFL since Fort William  (1985/86) and Wick Academy (1996/97). Before that it was Sutherland based, Brora Rangers way back in 1965/66.

So don't blame the Highland League if there are no current clubs (in the 2 regions covered by the above) who seek promotion.  In my view, canvassing north Junior and NCL clubs would produce a resolutely negative response.

You’ve got that arse over tit. There’s been no opportunity for any Junior/NCL teams to apply for membership, the HFL is at its one-division-max. And Banks were effectively black-balled by the fearties in the ‘shire because they would have been in about them double quick, so their current petted lip is understandable.

The disdain the HFL have for the pyramid is pretty clear, no one but Cove have any enthusiasm for promotion and the reaction to a second tier is a mealy-mouthed ‘yeah but no but yeah but no’.

Encouraging the North Juniors into the pyramid clearly isn’t on the HFL agenda but should be on the SPFL/SFAs agendas. f**k me, it doesn’t mean they have to put up floodlights or enclose their grounds immediately, a partial licence excluding promotion to the top division shouldn’t be beyond the wit even of the dummies running our game. Give them encouragement and time, they have very little else.

Let’s face it, the North Junior clubs who do have potential are caught between the devil and the deep blue sea; top of the HFL standard teams in the East & West juniors and an HFL that is no more attractive a proposition than the shitfest they’re currently in.

[Robert James]

36 minutes ago, EdTheDuck said:

You’ve got that arse over tit. There’s been no opportunity for any Junior/NCL teams to apply for membership, the HFL is at its one-division-max. And Banks were effectively black-balled by the fearties in the ‘shire because they would have been in about them double quick, so their current petted lip is understandable.

 

The disdain the HFL have for the pyramid is pretty clear, no one but Cove have any enthusiasm for promotion and the reaction to a second tier is a mealy-mouthed ‘yeah but no but yeah but no’.

 

Encouraging the North Juniors into the pyramid clearly isn’t on the HFL agenda but should be on the SPFL/SFAs agendas. f**k me, it doesn’t mean they have to put up floodlights or enclose their grounds immediately, a partial licence excluding promotion to the top division shouldn’t be beyond the wit even of the dummies running our game. Give them encouragement and time, they have very little else.

 

Let’s face it, the North Junior clubs who do have potential are caught between the devil and the deep blue sea; top of the HFL standard teams in the East & West juniors and an HFL that is no more attractive a proposition than the shitfest they’re currently in.

 

If you re-read my post you will see that I was suggesting that the SFA should hold a ballot North Region junior clubs. Gathering information like this, is  useful when considering the future. Except of course when the SJFA fails (or is afraid) to publish the results ! 

I was also expressing my view that a North survey will probably get a negative response regarding joining the pyramid. Most of these junior clubs use open playing fields, have few spectators, and very limited resources.  

The attitude of Banks O'Dee, in  confirming that they are no longer seeking Highland League membership, is lamentable, and as you correctly sum up, is more pique than anything else. This is a shame for Banks'fans, as they really do deserve HFL football. This question alone would be worth the ballot.

Look forward, not back.

 

[effeffsee_the2nd]

Stupid question here,   Why is it so hard for a wee country like Scotland to simply amalgamate all football below the spfl into one pyramid split into regions and let every club find its level.  I guess some clubs do rather well from the current set up and don't want to change even if it was the greater good, I know that our population distrubition is a bit skew wiff making strong and weak regions, I know there is isn't a lot of money kicking around but all that on board is it still that hard?

someone mentioned flood lights and open parks, why would unlit public parks be a problem for essentially participation level sport? if they get promoted then deal with it when it comes.  why would such a team not be allowed to play in the Scottish cup either? if they draw a team with a significant support cant they just use the nearest suitable ground like ablion rovers or east Kilbride did at airdie?

it all seems like such a minefield for something that shouldn't be hard

[Robert James]

2 hours ago, effeffsee_the2nd said:

Stupid question here,   Why is it so hard for a wee country like Scotland to simply amalgamate all football below the spfl into one pyramid split into regions and let every club find its level.  I guess some clubs do rather well from the current set up and don't want to change even if it was the greater good, I know that our population distrubition is a bit skew wiff making strong and weak regions, I know there is isn't a lot of money kicking around but all that on board is it still that hard?

someone mentioned flood lights and open parks, why would unlit public parks be a problem for essentially participation level sport? if they get promoted then deal with it when it comes.  why would such a team not be allowed to play in the Scottish cup either? if they draw a team with a significant support cant they just use the nearest suitable ground like ablion rovers or east Kilbride did at airdie?

it all seems like such a minefield for something that shouldn't be hard

Why ?

South of the border, the Football Association controls all of the English pyramid, and after consultation, it makes its decisions, sets a timescale, and implements the changes. It takes the view that you can't please all of the clubs, all of the time. Since the pyramid was formed, the FA has made some mistakes (eg the level/status of the Northern League), which it has been criticised for, but generally it has been very successful in pleasing most of the clubs, most of the time,  And it does what it says it will do, through firm leadership. 

The Scottish FA has never taken a firm stand with the Junior SFA, which in my opinion has not been in the best interest of our non-league game. This time it needs to grasp the nettle (even if it stings), lead the consultation, and decide what will happen, rather than leaving it with the SJFA to tamper with. Junior clubs have apparently given a majority verdict to joining the pyramid. Most fans support this outcome as well, as they want to dream of glory, or at least the chance of it (for their club).

The ball is firmly in the SFA's 'field', so they must take control of it. Juggling the ball in the air, doesn't usually lead to goals and success. In fact, it makes the outcome more difficult to achieve.

[effeffsee_the2nd]

Thanks mate,  to be ohnest I don't follow non league football but whenever you listen to the many criticisms of Scottish football its that we seem to be stuck in the dark ages when it comes to non league & amateur football. the way I heard is that there are several leagues ie junior eos and so on running in parallel where in each league there are 2 or 3 good teams then the standard falls of a cliff is that right or not? whats the juniors aversion to it?

[Jimmy Shaker]

You can't expect the SHFL to start asking teams from the juniors to join when the SHFL at present is such a chronic shambles. BOD have already said they want nothing to do with it at this time, but are clearly developing a club that could 'do' League 2/non-league senior football. 

It'll all be sorted out soon enough when the SHFL fails to provide a candidate for the playoffs next month and the rumoured plan of the SFA starting their own twelve team Highland/Northern League and inviting wannabe SPFL teams to join kicks in. Sadly, even the refuseniks like Buckie and Brora would still apply to join despite having no intention moving up because they'd rather play against Locos, Cove, Formartine etc than dick about with Fort, Rothes and Strathspey.

The SHFL is in such a mess re sponsorship, exposure, attendances, gulf in class between clubs, and clubs being wrecks looking for a place to happen, that someone from outside coming in and clearing house would probably be welcome. 

[Robert James]

5 hours ago, Jimmy Shaker said:

You can't expect the SHFL to start asking teams from the juniors to join when the SHFL at present is such a chronic shambles. BOD have already said they want nothing to do with it at this time, but are clearly developing a club that could 'do' League 2/non-league senior football. 

It'll all be sorted out soon enough when the SHFL fails to provide a candidate for the playoffs next month and the rumoured plan of the SFA starting their own twelve team Highland/Northern League and inviting wannabe SPFL teams to join kicks in. Sadly, even the refuseniks like Buckie and Brora would still apply to join despite having no intention moving up because they'd rather play against Locos, Cove, Formartine etc than dick about with Fort, Rothes and Strathspey.

The SHFL is in such a mess re sponsorship, exposure, attendances, gulf in class between clubs, and clubs being wrecks looking for a place to happen, that someone from outside coming in and clearing house would probably be welcome. 

Fails to provide a candidate ?

Cove Rangers, with their new ground nearing completion, are going all out to win the SPFL playoffs.

[Jimmy Shaker]

As things stand, they’re nowhere near winning the league in time take part in the playoffs.

 

[Whitburn Vale]

13 hours ago, Robert James said:

Fails to provide a candidate ?

Cove Rangers, with their new ground nearing completion, are going all out to win the SPFL playoffs.

Robert,cove are in real danger of not being confirmed hfl champs in time for the play offs !!

The amount of games they still hav to play is horrendous!!

Close rivals Loco's and Broch keep winning too !!

The hfl's 18 team league is not helping,i.m.o a 2 tier SHFL is required or cut the league down to 16(same as LL) and have the north super league as your league below. The NCL would go in at a lower level.

[Whitburn Vale]

P.s for more in depth highland league discussion go to the "Fitba North" forum.