Scotland v Costa Rica 23rd March

[nsr]

8 hours ago, craigkillie said:

What's the alternative?  Be impatient and sack a manager and get rid of a bunch of players after one game in the hope that it will magically make us better?  Our world ranking is almost identical to 20 years ago (we're actually currently 9 places higher than we were going into the 1998 World Cup), so presumably we have overtaken as many teams as have overtaken us.

Obviously the answer is not to go to the other extreme, no. But national teams who were miles behind us 20 years ago are now ahead of us (e.g. Iceland, Wales, N Ireland). National teams which didn't even exist 20-30 years ago are now ahead of us (e.g. pretty much all the Balkan teams minus Kosovo). So there is clearly a better way. I realise part of it's down to Scottish society where healthy eating and exercise are largely non-existent in the communities where footballers traditionally come from, while getting wasted is most footballing-age people's idea of a good night out, and professional players can no longer get away with that sort of lifestyle.

[Lex]

Obviously the answer is not to go to the other extreme, no. But national teams who were miles behind us 20 years ago are now ahead of us (e.g. Iceland, Wales, N Ireland). National teams which didn't even exist 20-30 years ago are now ahead of us (e.g. pretty much all the Balkan teams minus Kosovo). So there is clearly a better way. I realise part of it's down to Scottish society where healthy eating and exercise are largely non-existent in the communities where footballers traditionally come from, while getting wasted is most footballing-age people's idea of a good night out, and professional players can no longer get away with that sort of lifestyle.

There is something that happens to Scottish players between 17 and 20.

We are excellent at school boy level, always have been. We made the u16 World Cup final in 1989. At the under 17’s euros in 2014 we made the semi final - beating Germany in the group stage - and we have qualified for the finals of that tournament every year since. In 2013 we won the victory shield, beating England in the process:

http://www.thefa.com/news/2013/nov/29/scotland-vs-report

We haven’t made a finals of an under 21 championship since 1996, an even bigger wait than the senior team! Teams like Norway, Macedonia and Israel have all qualified for the U21 euros in the last few years. After our draw in Andorra last week, it looks like we won’t be there in 2019 either.

Our 16 and 17 year olds consistently punch above their weight, by the time they get to 20 they start underachieving. What’s happening to them? Souness said it was the 3 B’s: Booze, birds and burgers. Sadly, he’s probably right.

[EH75]

4 minutes ago, Lex said:

There is something that happens to Scottish players between 17 and 20.

 

 

Buckfast.

Also is there an argument that perhaps at 16s level we are doing the classic "play the big lads" and physicality wins out at that age but by the time we reach 21s the other nation's more technically gifted players have caught up physically and normal service is resumed?

[forameus]

49 minutes ago, EH75 said:

Buckfast.

Also is there an argument that perhaps at 16s level we are doing the classic "play the big lads" and physicality wins out at that age but by the time we reach 21s the other nation's more technically gifted players have caught up physically and normal service is resumed?

Probably more accurate than society stuff.  We'll soon see, as it seems young people are more attuned to fitness and healthy eating, and staying away from the other stuff.  If so, we may start seeing improvements.  Or if it's, like you say, down to us choosing the bigger boys, then it's clear that the fault lies more with that.

It's almost like the people in those areas would rather blame something they can't control than something they can.

[Poet of the Macabre]

While I'm very glad I didn't watch the full game on Friday, it's quite unsettling how many Scotland "fans" are gagging for McLeish to do a shite job.

I don't care how badly we played, slating players and booing the team off after one friendly match is piss poor. If we're awful in the competitive matches then fair play but at least give it a chance before having embarking on your nonsensical 'Yer Da'-esque ramblings.

[tree house tam]

40 minutes ago, Poet of the Macabre said:

slating players 

Cairney deserves everything said about him. Shocking performance and i would've sent him on the next plane home.

[Peppino Impastato]

59 minutes ago, tree house tam said:

Cairney deserves everything said about him. Shocking performance and i would've sent him on the next plane home.

Not possible.  He could be in the premiership next season.

[jagfox]

9 minutes ago, Peppino Impastato said:

Not possible.  He could be in the premiership next season.

I can’t see him signing for a Scottish club? 

[Peppino Impastato]

1 minute ago, jagfox99 said:

I can’t see him signing for a Scottish club? 

That's the way it is.  He's amazing.

[jagfox]

11 hours ago, Lex said:

 

 

There is something that happens to Scottish players between 17 and 20.

We are excellent at school boy level, always have been. We made the u16 World Cup final in 1989. At the under 17’s euros in 2014 we made the semi final - beating Germany in the group stage - and we have qualified for the finals of that tournament every year since. In 2013 we won the victory shield, beating England in the process:

http://www.thefa.com/news/2013/nov/29/scotland-vs-report

We haven’t made a finals of an under 21 championship since 1996, an even bigger wait than the senior team! Teams like Norway, Macedonia and Israel have all qualified for the U21 euros in the last few years. After our draw in Andorra last week, it looks like we won’t be there in 2019 either.

Our 16 and 17 year olds consistently punch above their weight, by the time they get to 20 they start underachieving. What’s happening to them? Souness said it was the 3 B’s: Booze, birds and burgers. Sadly, he’s probably right.

 

 

Definetly something to how players handle themselves at that critical stage of development. Another issue comes down to the circumstances at their parent clubs. A lot of Celtic and Rangers players get selected for the u21s but never kick on due to a lack of game time in d9mestic football. There’s been a fair few players from EPL teams in a similar situation. When they do get a loan move it’s usually to a lower league team where development can stall. 

On the other side of the coin we have seen McKenna gaining a first cap despite being nowhere near the u21s thanks to gaining first team experience at Aberdeen. On a similar note Jack Hendry and possibly Liam Lindsay could find themselves earning full caps in the near future despite being overlooked for the u21s. 

[Peppino Impastato]

14 minutes ago, jagfox99 said:

Definetly something to how players handle themselves at that critical stage of development. Another issue comes down to the circumstances at their parent clubs. A lot of Celtic and Rangers players get selected for the u21s but never kick on due to a lack of game time in d9mestic football. There’s been a fair few players from EPL teams in a similar situation. When they do get a loan move it’s usually to a lower league team where development can stall. 

On the other side of the coin we have seen McKenna gaining a first cap despite being nowhere near the u21s thanks to gaining first team experience at Aberdeen. On a similar note Jack Hendry and possibly Liam Lindsay could find themselves earning full caps in the near future despite being overlooked for the u21s. 

McKenna captained the 21s.  Only played five times but he did play.

[jagfox]

4 minutes ago, Peppino Impastato said:

McKenna captained the 21s.  Only played five times but he did play.

Did you have any representative games during your playing career? Any thoughts about where young players, clubs or the SFA go wrong? 

[Peppino Impastato]

18 minutes ago, jagfox99 said:

Did you have any representative games during your playing career? Any thoughts about where young players, clubs or the SFA go wrong? 

No, I was a wee bit of a late developer and never in a senior squad.  In my day there was a serious lack of facilities which gladly has been addressed quite well and kids were playing full size pitches etc which I also believe has changed.

Asides from that I think a lack of professionalism costs a lot of potentially very good players who just don't seem to have the same dedication and professionalism of Scandinavians etc.  It has to be your whole life not just your job, too many go in do their three hours half arsed then away to the bookies. 

Some sign a big contract aged say 21 and think it's party time, when really that's knuckle down time if you want to be able to compete with European teams aged 25.

I knew a guy at rangers, not even a good player not first choice.  He was there late 90s early 2000s.  Saw a payslip of his when he was probably 20.  He cleared after tax a basic wage of just over 34 grand a month.  And his life was just nightclubs bevvy burds.  Pretty much finished by mid to late 20s.

Also reserve football was invaluable, playing against men getting booted six foot high if you got out of line was a great grounding and should be brought back.

[jagfox]

Gambling certainly seems to be the elephant in the room with a lot of players. My mate’s wife worked in a bank in Milngavie and a lot of the Rangers players came in. Some of the younger ones were punting £1-2k a month, every month. They’re mostly plying their trades in the lower leagues up here and League one or two down south if their lucky. 

There seems to be a glass ceiling for so many players coming through the academies at Auchenhowie and Lennoxtown. Dominate most of the local youth competitions then out on there ear by the time they’re  21-22. More get let go even earlier I suppose. 

[Millions]

15 minutes ago, Peppino Impastato said:

No, I was a wee bit of a late developer and never in a senior squad.  In my day there was a serious lack of facilities which gladly has been addressed quite well and kids were playing full size pitches etc which I also believe has changed.

Asides from that I think a lack of professionalism costs a lot of potentially very good players who just don't seem to have the same dedication and professionalism of Scandinavians etc.  It has to be your whole life not just your job, too many go in do their three hours half arsed then away to the bookies. 

Some sign a big contract aged say 21 and think it's party time, when really that's knuckle down time if you want to be able to compete with European teams aged 25.

I knew a guy at rangers, not even a good player not first choice.  He was there late 90s early 2000s.  Saw a payslip of his when he was probably 20.  He cleared after tax a basic wage of just over 34 grand a month.  And his life was just nightclubs bevvy burds.  Pretty much finished by mid to late 20s.

Also reserve football was invaluable, playing against men getting booted six foot high if you got out of line was a great grounding and should be brought back.

 

[John Lambies Doos]

There is something that happens to Scottish players between 17 and 20.

We are excellent at school boy level, always have been. We made the u16 World Cup final in 1989. At the under 17’s euros in 2014 we made the semi final - beating Germany in the group stage - and we have qualified for the finals of that tournament every year since. In 2013 we won the victory shield, beating England in the process:

http://www.thefa.com/news/2013/nov/29/scotland-vs-report

We haven’t made a finals of an under 21 championship since 1996, an even bigger wait than the senior team! Teams like Norway, Macedonia and Israel have all qualified for the U21 euros in the last few years. After our draw in Andorra last week, it looks like we won’t be there in 2019 either.

Our 16 and 17 year olds consistently punch above their weight, by the time they get to 20 they start underachieving. What’s happening to them? Souness said it was the 3 B’s: Booze, birds and burgers. Sadly, he’s probably right.

I read an article on this previously. At school boy level Scotland out muscle a lot of their opponents who have been taught skill at a younger level and a 'don't need to win' at all costs' When their players reach 17-18 they natural get the strength but retain the skill; we just retain the strength and can't compete at top level.

[Peppino Impastato]

2 hours ago, John Lambies Doos said:

15 hours ago, Lex said:

There is something that happens to Scottish players between 17 and 20.

We are excellent at school boy level, always have been. We made the u16 World Cup final in 1989. At the under 17’s euros in 2014 we made the semi final - beating Germany in the group stage - and we have qualified for the finals of that tournament every year since. In 2013 we won the victory shield, beating England in the process:

http://www.thefa.com/news/2013/nov/29/scotland-vs-report

We haven’t made a finals of an under 21 championship since 1996, an even bigger wait than the senior team! Teams like Norway, Macedonia and Israel have all qualified for the U21 euros in the last few years. After our draw in Andorra last week, it looks like we won’t be there in 2019 either.

Our 16 and 17 year olds consistently punch above their weight, by the time they get to 20 they start underachieving. What’s happening to them? Souness said it was the 3 B’s: Booze, birds and burgers. Sadly, he’s probably right.

I read an article on this previously. At school boy level Scotland out muscle a lot of their opponents who have been taught skill at a younger level and a 'don't need to win' at all costs' When their players reach 17-18 they natural get the strength but retain the skill; we just retain the strength and can't compete at top level.

Definitely something in this, England too.

[No_Problemo]

I read an article on this previously. At school boy level Scotland out muscle a lot of their opponents who have been taught skill at a younger level and a 'don't need to win' at all costs' When their players reach 17-18 they natural get the strength but retain the skill; we just retain the strength and can't compete at top level.

If you look at our youth teams then this isn’t remotely the case. All scrawny wee boys.

[tamba_trio]

I tend to think that our development of players goes wrong at an earlier age: when they're 12-16. I've seen more than a few kids at this age who were great at football but utter assholes in school. When they hit 17-20 and sign full time at a club, the club then gets exposed to the full brunt of their assholery and it's too late to change their attitude.

Granted, the whole culture of football in Scotland makes it pretty difficult for kids anyway. I mean, look at that young guy Aitchinson who scored for Celtic at 16. As he scores, he's got a huge advert for MAGNERS on his chest and he's playing in the LADBROKES Premiership. If we're going to promote alcohol and gambling, it's only to be expected that we'll lose plenty of potentially good players to them.

[forameus]

30 minutes ago, tamba_trio said:

I tend to think that our development of players goes wrong at an earlier age: when they're 12-16. I've seen more than a few kids at this age who were great at football but utter assholes in school. When they hit 17-20 and sign full time at a club, the club then gets exposed to the full brunt of their assholery and it's too late to change their attitude.

Granted, the whole culture of football in Scotland makes it pretty difficult for kids anyway. I mean, look at that young guy Aitchinson who scored for Celtic at 16. As he scores, he's got a huge advert for MAGNERS on his chest and he's playing in the LADBROKES Premiership. If we're going to promote alcohol and gambling, it's only to be expected that we'll lose plenty of potentially good players to them.

If a young person is going to have their head turned by drink and gambling, I think it would probably happen anyway, regardless of whether they're a shirt sponsor or not.  If they're so easily led that said young player looks at his shirt and thinks, aye, that's a good idea, then that'd be the least of their problems.