Automatic relegation from League 2

[The Moonster]

12 minutes ago, Ivo den Bieman said:

Very easy for Falkirk and Dumbarton fans who are unlikely to ever be in the position of dropping out the league to be snide about clubs who've gone through the experience, as well. No one I know still opposes relegation / movement out of the league and encouraging ambitious non league clubs to progress. Struggling clubs at the bottom have a reasonable case in waiting one or two more seasons, until the tectonic plates of the pyramid have shifted in order to make it work properly, however. I'd expect relegation to be automatic by 2020/21 if the movement out of the juniors gathers pace in the next coupel of seasons.

Dumbarton fans unlikely to ever be in the position? Sorry but 10 years ago I was up at Station Park cheering on my team in the hope we'd avoid 10th in the 3rd Division. I'm fully aware that my club (especially with our current off field shit appearing to be hurtling towards the fan) could easily find themselves down there in the not too distant future. I'd also argue that the team I support is completely irrelevant, if I supported Celtic or Cowdenbeath I'd be saying the exact same - craigkillie is spot on about the "closed shop" angle and I'd wager you and Cowden Cowboy would have been critical of the SPL when it was accused of such things.

Why do we need to wait for bigger junior clubs to toe the line to make changes. Both of you are effectively saying all of the teams currently in the LL aren't now, and won't ever be, of good enough quality to merit inclusion in League 2. What's the point in them?

[craigkillie]

4 minutes ago, Cowden Cowboy said:

This isn't correct - the SPL had the best teams in it and Division 1 had the next best set of teams.

The LL/HL/EoS do not have all of the best teams below SPFL level in their ranks

The Lowland League and Highland League represent the best non-league teams in the pyramid structure, which is as much as they can ever do.  If teams choose to stay outside of that structure, that is up to them, but it shouldn't affect what is going on within the structure.

You could just as easily argue that the old SFL didn't have all the best teams below SPL level in their ranks, since the Highland League, East of Scotland League, South of Scotland League and Junior clubs weren't part of the SFL.

[Cowden Cowboy]

The Lowland League and Highland League represent the best non-league teams in the pyramid structure, which is as much as they can ever do.  If teams choose to stay outside of that structure, that is up to them, but it shouldn't affect what is going on within the structure.
You could just as easily argue that the old SFL didn't have all the best teams below SPL level in their ranks, since the Highland League, East of Scotland League, South of Scotland League and Junior clubs weren't part of the SFL.

Well generally the SFL was better than those other leagues as results showed when teams met. The Highland League was a bit different as there was a bigger geographic/logistical issue years ago - as that improved many Highland League clubs were brought into the SFL without any promotion/relegation being involved.

[Cowden Cowboy]

Dumbarton fans unlikely to ever be in the position? Sorry but 10 years ago I was up at Station Park cheering on my team in the hope we'd avoid 10th in the 3rd Division. I'm fully aware that my club (especially with our current off field shit appearing to be hurtling towards the fan) could easily find themselves down there in the not too distant future. I'd also argue that the team I support is completely irrelevant, if I supported Celtic or Cowdenbeath I'd be saying the exact same - craigkillie is spot on about the "closed shop" angle and I'd wager you and Cowden Cowboy would have been critical of the SPL when it was accused of such things.
Why do we need to wait for bigger junior clubs to toe the line to make changes. Both of you are effectively saying all of the teams currently in the LL aren't now, and won't ever be, of good enough quality to merit inclusion in League 2. What's the point in them?

Why do you write something that nobody ever suggested and try and put words in our mouths. Never was suggested that "All of the teams currently in the LL aren't now and won't ever be of good enough quality to merit inclusion in League 2" - basically it is a lie to say that I ever said that. There is a play off and if LL club like Edinburgh City wins it they are good enough to play in League as would be Spartans or EK or anyone else in the LL who win the play off. Always accepted that as didn't state anything to the contrary

[The Moonster]

32 minutes ago, Cowden Cowboy said:

Why do you write something that nobody ever suggested and try and put words in our mouths. Never was suggested that "All of the teams currently in the LL aren't now and won't ever be of good enough quality to merit inclusion in League 2" - basically it is a lie to say that I ever said that. There is a play off and if LL club like Edinburgh City wins it they are good enough to play in League as would be Spartans or EK or anyone else in the LL who win the play off. Always accepted that as didn't state anything to the contrary

Well your argument is that the teams in the Lowland League aren't very good so they shouldn't be automatically promoted unless they can "prove themselves" against a League 2 side in a play-off. Therefore all of the teams which have currently failed to do that are not good enough and don't merit an automatic spot. They will only merit an automatic spot when their league is "strengthened". Are you arguing it will be easier for these currently not good enough teams to win their league when bigger and better junior sides join the set-up?

I genuinely don't see the logic in delaying the automatic spots inclusion, everyone has conceded it's what is required - let's just get on with it.

[Cowden Cowboy]

Well your argument is that the teams in the Lowland League aren't very good so they shouldn't be automatically promoted unless they can "prove themselves" against a League 2 side in a play-off. Therefore all of the teams which have currently failed to do that are not good enough and don't merit an automatic spot. They will only merit an automatic spot when their league is "strengthened". Are you arguing it will be easier for these currently not good enough teams to win their league when bigger and better junior sides join the set-up?
I genuinely don't see the logic in delaying the automatic spots inclusion, everyone has conceded it's what is required - let's just get on with it.

Everyone - not really?! The SPFL clubs are the ones who would make such a decision and do they favour it? No I am saying that the LL needs to be a stronger and more competitive league such that its general appeal, quality, crowds, publicity, sponsorship, are driven upwards - that isn't a difficult concept to understand. Then it might make it more palatable for SPFL clubs to agree automatic promotion as there is a stronger and more attractive league for them to play in if they are relegated. I'm not having a go at the LL clubs it's the juniors I have concerns about.

[Ivo den Bieman]

2 hours ago, The Moonster said:

Dumbarton fans unlikely to ever be in the position? Sorry but 10 years ago I was up at Station Park cheering on my team in the hope we'd avoid 10th in the 3rd Division.

and the consequences of you finishing tenth then were what? put away the hairshirt. you're (fortunately) a long way off finishing bottom of the third division. nor have you ever gone through a "lose and you'll be non league" play off.

Why do we need to wait for bigger junior clubs to toe the line to make changes. Both of you are effectively saying all of the teams currently in the LL aren't now, and won't ever be, of good enough quality to merit inclusion in League 2. What's the point in them?

I said no such thing. There's not much point discussing anything with you if you're just going to invent things people have said to suit whatever your bored-on-a-Monday-afternoon point is.

If EK or Cove thump Cowden this season then there'll be no complaints from me (just as I would have had no cause for complaint had we lost to Brora in 2015).

 

[parsforlife]

Cowden cowboy to be here in a year arguing for a more open system for promotion given the unfair play-off system that cowdenbeath would need to negotiate ...

 

 

[The Moonster]

1 hour ago, Cowden Cowboy said:

Everyone - not really?! The SPFL clubs are the ones who would make such a decision and do they favour it? No I am saying that the LL needs to be a stronger and more competitive league such that its general appeal, quality, crowds, publicity, sponsorship, are driven upwards - that isn't a difficult concept to understand. Then it might make it more palatable for SPFL clubs to agree automatic promotion as there is a stronger and more attractive league for them to play in if they are relegated. I'm not having a go at the LL clubs it's the juniors I have concerns about.

I find that incredibly self preserving but I think we'll leave it there.

1 hour ago, Ivo den Bieman said:

 

Because my team wouldn't have been relegated that season it's rich of me to give an opinion on the self preservation going on in League 2 that the SPL was previously slated for? Okay.

I know there will be no complaints if they win the play-off from you lot, the complaint is that they need to go through that in the first place.

[FairWeatherFan]

Until the HL/LL teams have a better record in the playoffs, I don't see it changing voluntarily. It is still to steep a drop off for the SPFL club and they're going to want a second chance at saving themselves for as long as possible.

It's on the horizon though. Which can only be a good thing.

[HibeeJibee]

With the exception of Edinburgh City thrashing Cove all the playoffs have been tight. City v Brora went to penalties... Brora were beating Montrose until they scored 2 goals in the last 15 min of 2nd leg... City scored against 'Shire with minutes left of 2nd leg... EK beat Buckie 4-3 on aggregate then lost to Cowdenbeath on penalties. This, coupled with 'Shire finishing 2nd last season then currently sitting 4th, plus results in the cups, would seem to show the standard is pretty similar between the respective top & bottom ends... which is hardly surprising.

What doesn't hold water is to then say "so they're not enhancing SPFL2 so they shouldn't be coming in" - after all no-one wants promotion/relegation in the levels above to be reduced as Brechin or Forfar don't "enhance" the Championship or SPFL1.

As quality and quantity of clubs in the pyramid keeps increasing - especially in LL - there will be pressure to improve on 0.5 slots. It is likely self-interest from SPFL2 clubs - yep, quite possibly including Berwick, before anyone retorts! - will see it put off as long as possible... equally, making it easier to go down also makes it easier to get back up.

[big al]

Well I’m a Cowden fan and I think bottom automatically down and 2nd bottom in the play off is fairer and brings it more into line with the other leagues.

 

[vikingTON]

1.5 spots should be the goal: 10th should be papped down automatically ASAP, with the Highland and Lowland League winners playing off for that promotion spot.  I'd then have the loser of that tie getting a pop at 9th in League Two over two legs as well. The flip-side to more sides dropping out of the national league is of course having an equally increased chance of getting back into it. 

 

[Poet of the Macabre]

Love that Dumbarton are now seen as one of the out of touch "big" clubs. Welcome to the gang, fellas.

[Thom & Gerry]

The reason ex pros are content in HL apart from good money at a minority of HL clubs,  is they are fed up of commuting from north hence the reluctance of HL teams to get promoted. Part of the reason Elgin are stuck where they are.

[parsforlife]

10th straight down, 9th into play-off.

I'd like to see at a minimum 2nd place tier 5 side have a chance of going up. Would scheduling allow for(with the HL sorting their shit out)

10th down

1st v 1st play off to go up

Loser, 9th and 2nd place into playoffs. To stay/go up.

Not sure if that would work done similarly to lower league play-off. Perhaps have 2nd vs 2nd at the same time as 1st vs 1st ?

[1320Lichtie]

The reason ex pros are content in HL apart from good money at a minority of HL clubs,  is they are fed up of commuting from north hence the reluctance of HL teams to get promoted. Part of the reason Elgin are stuck where they are.

The Highland League throws up some mental journeys does it not?

Plus Elgin players only have to go up to Elgin 18 times a year for league games.

[HibeeJibee]

34 minutes ago, parsforlife said:

10th straight down, 9th into play-off.

I'd like to see at a minimum 2nd place tier 5 side have a chance of going up. Would scheduling allow for(with the HL sorting their shit out)

10th down

1st v 1st play off to go up

Loser, 9th and 2nd place into playoffs. To stay/go up.

Not sure if that would work done similarly to lower league play-off. Perhaps have 2nd vs 2nd at the same time as 1st vs 1st ?

So basically:

Relegated - 10th in SPFL2
Promoted - winner of champions playoff 1st in HL v 1st in LL

Playoff SFs - loser of above, 9th in SPFL2, 2nd in HL and 2nd in LL
Playoff Final - winners of above


Logistically it works but obviously you've 3 rounds of playoffs for the loser of the champions playoff.

Realistically your '9th & loser & runners-up' playoffs would have to be Wed-Sat-Wed-Sat, except your runners-up have 2 blank weekends, unless add:

Playoff QFs - 2nd & 3rd in HL and 2nd & 3rd in LL

making
                                         (a)                            (b)                      (c)
Weekend          LL 1 v HL 1          LL 3 v HL 2, HL 3 v LL 2
Weekend          HL 1 v LL 1          HL 2 v LL 3, LL2 v HL 3

                                                (d)                                        (e)
Midweek           loser (a) v SPFL2 9, winner (c) v winner (b)
Weekend          SPFL2 9 v loser (a), winner (b) v winner (c)

Midweek           winner (e) v winner (d)
Weekend          winner (d) v winner (e)


Rather more straightforward - albeit not involving more HL/LL clubs, granted - would be to mirror the model used in the tiers above i.e. 10th in SPFL2 relegated, winner of HL v LL champions playoff promoted, and loser into playoff v 9th in SPFL2.

[big al]

51 minutes ago, Poet of the Macabre said:

Love that Dumbarton are now seen as one of the out of touch "big" clubs. Welcome to the gang, fellas.

17th out of 22 full time clubs, yip, gigantic.

light years behind giants such as Hamilton    and Livingston I suppose makes the 17th pretty impressive.

ps we know we are shite so save you trying to inform

[parsforlife]

So basically:

 

Relegated - 10th in SPFL2

Promoted - winner of playoff 1st in HL v 1st in LL

 

Playoff SFs - loser of above, 9th in SPFL2, 2nd in HL and 2nd in LL

Playoff Final - winners of above

 

yeh?

 

Logistically it works but obviously you've 3 rounds of playoffs for the loser of the champions playoff.

 

Realistically your '9th & loser & runners-up' playoffs would have to be Wed-Sat-Wed-Sat.

 

More straightforward would be to mirror the model used in the tiers above i.e. 10th in SPFL2 relegated, winner of HL v LL champions playoff promoted, and loser into playoff v 9th in SPFL2.

 

Yeah that's it basically, i know avoiding 2nd place sides makes things easier, but I think with 16/18 team league only 1 spot meaning anything(especially in HL with no relegation) isn't the best scenario.

 

I'll try and think of a better format(even considering the double chance for 1st place losers 3 rounds would be too much) ideally I'd like 3/4th placed teams involved but thats going to be even more of a stretch!

 

Edit

How does this sound. Using this seasons dates.

 

1st vs 1st winner up, 21st and 28th April

2nd vs 2nd play-off quarter final 21st and 28th April

Quarter final winner vs 9th 5th may (neural venue/ home of 9th place)

Semi final winner vs champions play off loser 12th may(neutral venue)

 

I have used a couple of 1 leg ties to try and keep a reasonable schedule, I think with the current likelihood that games will involve big distances makes midweek ties unlikely.