Club Licence

[Cyclizine]

3 hours ago, Burnie_man said:

The NRJFA have rejected the Pyramid, so how do Culter apply for a Licence as a Junior club?

Tayside clubs indicate their intention to join the HL if they want a Licence.

They could indicate their willingness to join the HFL, I guess. It's a bit of a grey area. I don't think it'll happen, but they could, same as a North of Tay ERJFA club could.

[gaz5]

What I stated is that if the EoS had not objected to ERSJFA entry at tier 6, WRSJFA clubs like Petershill and Cumnock would already be in the pyramid this season and would have been so as part of a plan that had the full backing of the SFA CEO in PWG meetings. That is fact. It's reasonable enough to argue that the EoS had a very good reason for doing what they did and had the right to do so. You could also reasonably point out that the ERSJFA might still not have got in because of the split division format they adopted. It is not reasonable to pretend that the EoS didn't stick a spanner in the works on what the SFA Board wanted to happen this season. 

I think what you mean is had TJ not inexplicably linked ERSJFA to WRSJFA then buried his head in the sand when given the opportunity to unlink the two, WRSJFA would be in next year.

The EoS rejected the East, they didn't link the East to the West or refuse to allow the West on board, they lobbied FOR that.

As far as I can tell, the EoS did more to get the West Juniors into the pyramid next year than any other organisation.

I can see why you are trying to confuse matters and lay blame with the EoS because they didn't roll over and take the Junior telt, but the facts remain that West Region clubs are not in the pyramid next year for one reason and one reason only, because TJ and the SJFA didn't want them there (or because they are incompetent beyond measure, but I don't believe that to be the case).

[Black Pennel]

LTL,...you are a "troll"...Resistance is futile. You will be assimilated.

[Arthurlie1981]

What can happen though is that the issue can be raised under AOB for discussion, and if there is a demand an EGM can be called at some point to vote on any new proposals/amendments to existing rules or agreements.  There is also nothing to prevent the individual leagues being invited to attend PWG meetings.
I still find it telling that nobody held TJ to account at the AGM.

On your first point, I agree he should have been asked for more. Secondly there is nothing stopping clubs to do that but at the moment there is no need for that. If at Christmas we are in the same position I expect to see more action and moves taking place. Lastly the PWG can invite the regions but they haven’t yet. That’s their problem not the juniors.

Personally I want the pyramid to happen, but do find it condescending for clubs out with the juniors to come along and tell us what we should be doing. Clubs know what they are doing and they know who they can & cannot trust.

[Burnie_man]

On your first point, I agree he should have been asked for more. Secondly there is nothing stopping clubs to do that but at the moment there is no need for that. If at Christmas we are in the same position I expect to see more action and moves taking place. Lastly the PWG can invite the regions but they haven’t yet. That’s their problem not the juniors.

Personally I want the pyramid to happen, but do find it condescending for clubs out with the juniors to come along and tell us what we should be doing. Clubs know what they are doing and they know who they can & cannot trust.

It's not condascending in the slightest, you have the remember the impact this has on other leagues and the fact they may have competitor leagues covering the same area foisted upon them via this process, and had to ensure that wasn't going to happen. So yes, the SJFA's actions impacts what's going on elsewhere.

As for PWG and Junior leagues, the question was asked at a meeting why the leagues were not represented and TJ responded that he represented them therefore no need for them to attend. That needs to change.

[Arthurlie1981]

It's not condascending in the slightest, you have the remember the impact this has on other leagues and the fact they may have competitor leagues covering the same area foisted upon them via this process, and had to ensure that wasn't going to happen. So yes, the SJFA's actions impacts what's going on elsewhere.

As for PWG and Junior leagues, the question was asked at a meeting why the leagues were not represented and TJ responded that he represented them therefore no need for them to attend. That needs to change.

It is condescending to come on here and tell clubs they are doing it wrong and to do it our way. It may not be deliberate but it certainly comes across that way.

I have no problem with the EOS decision. They have to protect their own interests and there has to be a common way to take this forward. I wouldn’t want a rival league at the same grade which is weaker than my product. This might need arbitration to resolve the East situation.

As regards the PWG, the clubs gave the power to the SJFA not the regions so it would be TJ to represent (or someone from the management committee). If the PWG want the regions to be there then they can invite them!!

[Burnie_man]

It is condescending to come on here and tell clubs they are doing it wrong and to do it our way. It may not be deliberate but it certainly comes across that way.

I have no problem with the EOS decision. They have to protect their own interests and there has to be a common way to take this forward. I wouldn’t want a rival league at the same grade which is weaker than my product. This might need arbitration to resolve the East situation.

As regards the PWG, the clubs gave the power to the SJFA not the regions so it would be TJ to represent (or someone from the management committee). If the PWG want the regions to be there then they can invite them!!

People are posting opinion, this is what this place is for. Nothing more, nothing less, you know that.

As for PWG I've already said what happened when it was raised. Perhaps the leagues themselves should be raising this issue with the SJFA, everyone can see that the 3 different regions needs 3 different solutions to sort this out. Continuing down the road of insisting east must be in with west will end in nothing.

I get the feeling that any enthusiasm for the Pyramid is draining away in the Juniors, a 38 minute AGM where it was barely discussed underlines that.

[LongTimeLurker]

11 hours ago, gaz5 said:

...I can see why you are trying to confuse matters and lay blame with the EoS...

Where did I do that exactly? All I have done is point out that the EoS did not do what the SFA Board wanted them to do in PWG meetings on agreeing to SJFA entry at tier 6 so SJFA clubs are not necessarily going to be viewed as a recalcitrant party where the pyramid is concerned at this point when decisions over licensing are made. From an SFA Board perspective the SJFA is still doing what they need to be doing by showing up for PWG meetings that have SJFA entry as the main item on the agenda and by implementing a new discipline procedure this season that fits standard pyramid procedures. I strongly suspect that the wheels are going to come off the wagon on that process by around January, but as things stand Petershill and Cumnock can reasonably be viewed from an SFA Board perspective as being committed to the principle of progression, so it's not safe to assume that their licensing applications are headed towards the nearest bin.

[Arthurlie1981]

People are posting opinion, this is what this place is for. Nothing more, nothing less, you know that.

As for PWG I've already said what happened when it was raised. Perhaps the leagues themselves should be raising this issue with the SJFA, everyone can see that the 3 different regions needs 3 different solutions to sort this out. Continuing down the road of insisting east must be in with west will end in nothing.

I get the feeling that any enthusiasm for the Pyramid is draining away in the Juniors, a 38 minute AGM where it was barely discussed underlines that.

But the regions don’t have the power to go the PWG. That’s akin to SPFL going to meetings with FIFA. You have avoided my point regarding the PWG inviting the regions as a way around this. Asking the SJFA secretary to undermine himself isn’t going to happen.

The regions don’t negotiate on behalf of the clubs it’s the association. Do I agree with it? Of course not, but that’s the way it works. I believe the management committee need to be more active with this and they should be sending a representative with the secretary. That would be the better option for me.

[Burnie_man]

But the regions don’t have the power to go the PWG. That’s akin to SPFL going to meetings with FIFA. You have avoided my point regarding the PWG inviting the regions as a way around this. Asking the SJFA secretary to undermine himself isn’t going to happen.

The regions don’t negotiate on behalf of the clubs it’s the association. Do I agree with it? Of course not, but that’s the way it works. I believe the management committee need to be more active with this and they should be sending a representative with the secretary. That would be the better option for me.

You missed my point, the PWG asked but TJ said there was no need as he represented them, so.......??

[gaz5]

 

 

 

 

 

 

Where did I do that exactly?

   

 

 

 

What I stated is that if the EoS had not objected to ERSJFA entry at tier 6, WRSJFA clubs like Petershill and Cumnock would already be in the pyramid this season.

 As I've said, the combining of the WRSJFA (which no one had objections to and the EoS lobbied FOR) and the ERSJFA as a "package" is the reason that Petershill and Cumnock are not in the pyramid next year. 

That package deal, and refusal to break it up (despite dropping the North like a hot tattie when it suited) is why Cumnock and Petershill are not in.

 

The EoS rejected (as did the LL) a batshit crazy plan, made concessions in the West and Tayside league's and invited East juniors to join them.

 

The SJFA rejected those alternatives, interestingly without seemingly presenting the options to their members like the EoS and LL did.

 

If I agree to buy your car (the outcome) and send my mate to pay who turns up and tries to do so in turnips of an equivalent cash value (batshit crazy plan), you are quite within your rights to tell me "no, you have to come yourself to sign the paperwork and pay in actual cash" (counter proposal that would work for all parties). If my mate refuses to come and present the alternate proposal to me and keeps shouting "turnips" it's not then your fault, having offered a workable solution, that I haven't got the car (the outcome) and my mate is left with a big bag of turnips (batshit crazy plan).

 

A deliberately stupid analogy, but essentially what you are suggesting by layimg the outcome at the door of the EoS for not accepting their bag of turnips initially. [emoji846]

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[FairWeatherFan]

56 minutes ago, Arthurlie1981 said:

 

But the regions don’t have the power to go the PWG. That’s akin to SPFL going to meetings with FIFA. You have avoided my point regarding the PWG inviting the regions as a way around this. Asking the SJFA secretary to undermine himself isn’t going to happen.

The regions don’t negotiate on behalf of the clubs it’s the association. Do I agree with it? Of course not, but that’s the way it works. I believe the management committee need to be more active with this and they should be sending a representative with the secretary. That would be the better option for me.

 

Iain McQueen has represented the SJFA at PWG meetings as well as TJ. I doubt anyone would of objected if the West or East Region secretaries had been in the SJFA party.

 

[Arthurlie1981]

You missed my point, the PWG asked but TJ said there was no need as he represented them, so.......??

Your missing the point. Why would you ask someone to undermine himself. He was given the responsibility by the clubs. If the PWG wants the regions there they should write and ask the regions.

If my memory serves me correct it was only one person (from the east I think) who asked about the regions not being represented. It was only asked once in a meeting. The PWG as a group have never asked. If they were I’m sure the regions (and the clubs) would be delighted to send someone.

I will say again. The onus is on the management committee. They instruct the Secretary and if they feel he is not doing a good job they can choose to send someone else. The Secretary cannot do any negotiating without the backing of the management committee. Clydebank are represented on it and are one of the clubs pushing for this. Read into that what you will!!

[Arthurlie1981]

Iain McQueen has represented the SJFA at PWG meetings as well as TJ. I doubt anyone would of objected if the West or East Region secretaries had been in the SJFA party.
 

I’m sure they wouldn’t but Iain is an employee of the SJFA and nothing to do with the regions. So I don’t see what your point is? My point is for the regions to attend there are two ways.

1. SJFA need to invite them (not going to happen as they would feel undermine)
2. The PWG formally write to the regions and invite them.

The regions are not just going to show up uninvited.

[Burnie_man]

Your missing the point. Why would you ask someone to undermine himself. He was given the responsibility by the clubs. If the PWG wants the regions there they should write and ask the regions.

If my memory serves me correct it was only one person (from the east I think) who asked about the regions not being represented. It was only asked once in a meeting. The PWG as a group have never asked. If they were I’m sure the regions (and the clubs) would be delighted to send someone.

I will say again. The onus is on the management committee. They instruct the Secretary and if they feel he is not doing a good job they can choose to send someone else. The Secretary cannot do any negotiating without the backing of the management committee. Clydebank are represented on it and are one of the clubs pushing for this. Read into that what you will!!

We're going round in circles, it all boils down to the fact that nobody in the west appears too concerned at the lack of progress from Tom "done deal" Johnston, we might be here in 12 months time saying the same thing.

If that doesn't concern those who want to be in the Pyramid, then I'm not sure what will.

[LongTimeLurker]

 

38 minutes ago, gaz5 said:

As I've said, the combining of the WRSJFA (which no one had objections to and the EoS lobbied FOR) and the ERSJFA as a "package" is the reason that Petershill and Cumnock are not in the pyramid next year...

 

It's one of the reasons rather than the only reason. What I stated is also one of the reasons as well. Multiple decisions by different parties led to what unfolded. What probably matters most on how the SFA Board and IM see things at this point is who went against what they wanted to happen. Most people in Scottish football couldn't really care less about the finer details of what happens at tier 6, so for them it's a case of get the juniors in there pronto, problem solved. Who cares where the HL:LL boundary is, let's move on and talk about something important now basically. If you have that outlook the people who get all worked up over something you see as an unimportant footnote are probably viewed as a major nuisance.

Edited June 25, 2019 by LongTimeLurker

[AlanCamelonfan]

5 minutes ago, LongTimeLurker said:

 

It's one of the reasons rather than the only reason. What I stated is also one of the reasons as well. Multiple decisions by different parties led to what unfolded. What probably matters most on how the SFA Board and IM see things at this point is who went against what they wanted to happen. Most people in Scottish football couldn't really care less about the finer details of what happens at tier 6, so for them it's a case of get the juniors in there pronto, problem solved. Who cares where the HL:LL boundary is, let's move on and talk about something important now basically. If you have that outlook the people who get all worked up over something you see as an unimportant footnote are probably viewed as a major nuisance.

The difference was they conceded something needed to change. TJ couldn't. EOS wanted WRSJFA in and Tayside league to be operated.

[Burnie_man]

 
It's one of the reasons rather than the only reason. What I stated is also one of the reasons as well. Multiple decisions by different parties led to what unfolded. What probably matters most on how the SFA Board and IM see things at this point is who went against what they wanted to happen. Most people in Scottish football couldn't really care less about the finer details of what happens at tier 6, so for them it's a case of get the juniors in there pronto, problem solved. Who cares where the HL:LL boundary is, let's move on and talk about something important now basically. If you have that outlook the people who get all worked up over something you see as an unimportant footnote are probably viewed as a major nuisance.

Most people don't care, but the ones that do are the ones the SFA need to work with to reach consensus. IM and RP's attitude was exceptionally high handed born out of ignorance of non league football and they certainly found out at the EoS meeting that this would need to change.

Will it? That remains to be seen. If it doesn't then I don't see much progress.

[FairWeatherFan]

1 hour ago, Arthurlie1981 said:

 

I’m sure they wouldn’t but Iain is an employee of the SJFA and nothing to do with the regions. So I don’t see what your point is? My point is for the regions to attend there are two ways.

1. SJFA need to invite them (not going to happen as they would feel undermine)
2. The PWG formally write to the regions and invite them.

The regions are not just going to show up uninvited.

 

Mentioning McQueen was to remind people that this hasn't been TJ alone. There has been other representatives.

Was it only SJFA employees that represented the NRJFA when the PWG was split into Highland and Lowland sections?

[pipedreamer]

6 minutes ago, FairWeatherFan said:

Mentioning McQueen was to remind people that this hasn't been TJ alone. There has been other representatives.

Was it only SJFA employees that represented the NRJFA when the PWG was split into Highland and Lowland sections?

Was TJ the sjfa rep that attended the meeting between the highland league and the nrjfa? If he wasn’t then that kind of debunks your TJ only and no region involvement at the pwg?