Club Licence

[FairWeatherFan]

5 minutes ago, Hillonearth said:

As long as accession to the league is by vote by the member clubs and not automatic, it is to all intents and purposes a closed shop. A team that's potentially a threat can be excluded in perpetuity.

Look at the last time they invited applications - using the flimsy excuse of geographic balance they excluded BoD but let in the much weaker Formartine, Turriff and Strathspey - a strategy that obviously backfired as the first two got their act together quickly and ended up challenging, leaving only Strathspey as the no doubt hoped-for cannon fodder.

It's not expressly down to a member vote anymore though. When the Highland League became a Tier 5 league in the senior pyramid, it became a requirement to have a entry level SFA Club Licence. A club in the Highland region gaining a new licence (rather than securing their historical one like Golspie) will likely be forced into the Highland League by the SFA.

It's going to take a club to try it though.

[Hillonearth]

2 minutes ago, FairWeatherFan said:

It's not expressly down to a member vote anymore though. When the Highland League became a Tier 5 league in the senior pyramid, it became a requirement to have a entry level SFA Club Licence. A club in the Highland region gaining a new licence (rather than securing their historical one like Golspie) will likely be forced into the Highland League by the SFA.

It's going to take a club to try it though.

What would be interesting would be if a real geographic outlier like Montrose Roselea got licensed - we'd then see for sure if the dice are loaded to ensure the axis of the HFL remains the strip between Inverness and Fraserburgh.

We played them in the Junior Cup a few years ago - their ground wasn't be too far off the standard required even back then.

[calmac25]

18 months ago Banks o Dee were keen on a Highland league place and built their 2 new enclosure in the belief that something in the Highland league is about to change. There was an article in the evening express about it.

I'd be surprised if they went to such an expense only to change their mind a year later

[FairWeatherFan]

32 minutes ago, Hillonearth said:

What would be interesting would be if a real geographic outlier like Montrose Roselea got licensed - we'd then see for sure if the dice are loaded to ensure the axis of the HFL remains the strip between Inverness and Fraserburgh.

We played them in the Junior Cup a few years ago - their ground wasn't be too far off the standard required even back then.

Montrose Roselea is a weird one and might not be the best indicator of a HFL cabal, but more a SPFL one. Even though there was the scare of Montrose FC being relegated to the Highland League in the first SPFL promotion/relegation playoff, the boundary is supposedly set so that all SPFL Angus clubs fall into the Lowland League catchment area.

If that's the legit then Montrose Roselea would have to join the EoSFL upon gaining a licence.

[HTG]

Joining by application at Tier 5 isn' much of a pyramid. Also, why should clubs in the north still be able to apply to join at tier 5 when in the south it's at tier 6 and will soon be at tier 7. 

The structure of the pyramid is an utter shambles. Driven by faults and flaws on all sides. 

I also very much doubt that BoD have no interest in the pyramid. 

[Goalie Hamish]

3 hours ago, Hillonearth said:

As long as accession to the league is by vote by the member clubs and not automatic, it is to all intents and purposes a closed shop. A team that's potentially a threat can be excluded in perpetuity.

By that measure, the SJFA is a closed shop as it requires clubs to apply, meet criteria, and then voted on by members before they are accepted.  The reality is they'll take anyone in who meets the ground criteria.

The only truly closed shop we had was the old SFL  (and probably the HFL pre-pyramid).

[Cyclizine]

You need to be licenced to join the HFL. There's only two licenced teams that could join. One has stated they're not interested, the other hasn't said anything publicly, but I'd be surprised. If a licenced club wants to join, the HFL can't stop them.

[honestly united]

Surely the Juniors is just a much a closed shop? 

Surely the juniors should be showing the way and opening up the bottom tiers of their leagues to the winners of amateur leagues to show how a forward thinking pyramid should work?

[Guest]

11 hours ago, Robert James said:

I agree entirely with your view that few if any West Junior clubs have little or no desire to join the SPFL.  So I can't see how  "moving forward into some better structure" can be achieved.  Clubs like Spartans, East Kilbride, Cumbernauld Colts, East Stirlingshire, BSG, Gala Fairydean, etc, wouldn't countenance joining a structure which doesn't have SPFL promotion. And a WoS 'feeder' can only work if promotion for playoff winners is compulsory, which it seems West clubs won't accept whatever  "better structure" is put in place.  So any on-going debate about the formation of a WoS feeder into the pyramid  (even if it was via  a new Lowland West feeder league), is sadly pointless.   

If there was an agenda around creating a vibrant non league within a pyramid, rather than the clamour to be in with the big boys, and I quote another poster from a few years back, "Gollum like yearning" to join senior football it would be a start. Clubs particularly in the EOS were the drivers behind what we now have and the concept was flawed, it was based on raw ambition and certain clubs saw a path to the promised land. What we got, and what we have ended with pandered to this desire and evolved into a dumbing down process to accommodate numbers, where we now have clubs in tier 5 & 6 who are no more than well run Sunday teams. It is box ticking and lip service of the worst kind and does not help anyone. My club have never had this longing and the majority in our league have a similar position IMHO. Therefore "moving forward into some better structure" would start from the premise that it be organised with no ceiling, that any club can go as far as their potential allows. However it be sorted from the bottom up. A well run vibrant regional non league scene under one umbrella, with a national trophy. A pathway all the way to the SPFL so that clubs can reach their true level. But here is the contentious bit, access to SFL 4 should be rigorous on  financial and  ground criteria and should be stepped up every with every promotion. There should be no fast tracked Boys Clubs or small clubs catapulted by a rich benefactor (Gretna) I have no problem with clubs finding their true level and I'm sure my club would do that within such a structure, as indeed every club would. Emphasis on "true level".

[Cyclizine]

Surely if there is no automatic promotion or relegation then it is a closed shop? Can remember when Banks o Dee were knocked back & understood their ire at the time . The general consensus was that they were a threat to the bigger HL sides at the time so the weaker sides were voted in . Whether that’s factually accurate is here or there depends on your opinion . But BoD have had a few good results against HL sides whenever playing them

There's a lot of speculation about how the teams were chosen. There was always going to be a Highland team and Strathspey were the only option. In theory Badenoch & Strathspey was an untapped resource so a team representing the area made sense. Unfortunately the potential hasn't materialised.

The story with the Shire sides and BoD is a little murkier, but the fact BoD didn't appear to put much effort into their application compared to Turriff and Formartine is fairly well reported. Turriff have been a good addition, jury out on Formartine...

[FairWeatherFan]

5 hours ago, HTG said:

Joining by application at Tier 5 isn' much of a pyramid. Also, why should clubs in the north still be able to apply to join at tier 5 when in the south it's at tier 6 and will soon be at tier 7.

It isn't much of a pyramid, but there's nothing below it! The SFA wanted the Highland League to go to 16 teams to match the Lowland League in part to ensure that the season would be finished in time for all the playoffs. Sounds fair enough in theory, but where would those 2 teams go?

You might say the North Caledonian due to its perceived senior status. 2013-14 = 7 clubs, 2014-15 = 6 clubs, 2015-16 = 6 clubs. So you would of had 2 Highland League teams going from a 34 game league season plus cups, to a 16/14 game league season plus cups. Quite a dramatic drop off and anything other than that would be forcing the existing North Caledonian teams into a circumstance they wouldn't want.

If not the North Caledonian, most outside observers would say it would be simple to just add the North Region Superleague underneath the Highland League. Great in theory but for the Senior/Junior divide.

The Highland League have had discussions for splitting into divisions to accomodate an increased number of teams. If we can get to that point, hopefully a Highland League 2 will fall into the same Tier 6 requirements as the SoSFL/EoSFL and only need a licence for promotion to Tier 5.

[Shannon]

3 hours ago, Cyclizine said:

The story with the Shire sides and BoD is a little murkier, but the fact BoD didn't appear to put much effort into their application compared to Turriff and Formartine is fairly well reported. Turriff have been a good addition, jury out on Formartine...

Fortmartine sit 4th in the league ahead of established sides such as Buckie, Brora, Huntly and Forres Mechanics? Why would the jury be out on them?! Looks a nice ground too. Also were 4th last season and 2nd in season 2015/16 too so been doing well...?

Edited February 8, 2018 by Shannon

[Cyclizine]

Fortmartine sit 4th in the league ahead of established sides such as Buckie, Brora, Huntly and Forres Mechanics? Why would the jury be out on them?! Looks a nice ground too. Also were 4th last season and 2nd in season 2015/16 too so been doing well...?

£££

[Robert James]

13 hours ago, Cyclizine said:

Will you stop persisting in this myth that the HFL is a closed shop - yes, there is no direct relation or promotion to the league, but it is patently possible to join it by application and there is a plan for what happens if numbers exceed 20.

Anything else is speculation, nobody has applied to join, saying that it's the league must offer invites is simply not true. This statement that the SFA have decreed no more than 18 tabs is just wrong.

Clubs moved from the HFL to the national leagues because of the historical imbalance in the geography, before 1993 the only league team in the historical HFL footprint was Aberdeen!

BoD may have been 'livid', but they still have not attempted to join and given their chairman has ruled out out, why would you argue otherwise?

 Yes the 2x10 is a fall back position agreed between the SFA and the HFL,  should a 'highland' club get relegated from Division 2, whilst a 'lowland' club gets promoted to the SPFL. Hence this part of your statement is factually accurate.

However the proposal put to the HFL AGM (at that time) was the implementation of 2 x 10 with immediate effect, as an alternative structure. It was voted down !

The HFL has not stated that if an 'extra' club applies, say Banks or Golspie or A N Other, that it will elect a 19th club and split to 2 divisions., and I am not aware of any published, or minuted decision to do so , should a Junior or NCL club apply for HFL membership  If you can produce  anything substantive, to the contrary, I will admit I was wrong.  Otherwise we must agree to differ.

I wish there was a north pyramid below the HFL, but there isn't.  I also wish there was a West pyramid feeder, but if you read the above thread about Talbot and promotion to the SPFL,  sadly I can't see one happening in the foreseeable future either. 

Regarding Banks and the HFL, watch this space , if Cove Rangers win promotion.

[Robert James]

19 hours ago, Marr1 said:

Say there were a West of Scotland league formed at tier 6, which clubs would be interested?

• Glasgow Uni (licensed)
• Girvan (licensed)
• Clydebank
• Third Lanark
• Strathclyde Uni?

Who else?

Oban Saints ?

Rothesay Brandane ?

- but a WoS feeder is a non starter without key Junior clubs participating.

[Cyclizine]

 Yes the 2x10 is a fall back position agreed between the SFA and the HFL,  should a 'highland' club get relegated from Division 2, whilst a 'lowland' club gets promoted to the SPFL. Hence this part of your statement is factually accurate.
However the proposal put to the HFL AGM (at that time) was the implementation of 2 x 10 with immediate effect, as an alternative structure. It was voted down !
The HFL has not stated that if an 'extra' club applies, say Banks or Golspie or A N Other, that it will elect a 19th club and split to 2 divisions., and I am not aware of any published, or minuted decision to do so , should a Junior or NCL club apply for HFL membership  If you can produce  anything substantive, to the contrary, I will admit I was wrong.  Otherwise we must agree to differ.
I wish there was a north pyramid below the HFL, but there isn't.  I also wish there was a West pyramid feeder, but if you read the above thread about Talbot and promotion to the SPFL,  sadly I can't see one happening in the foreseeable future either. 
Regarding Banks and the HFL, watch this space , if Cove Rangers win promotion.

You're confusing two separate things: the "Stables plan" of adding two teams and splitting 10-10, which was voted down a couple of years ago and the more recent decision on what to do if the Lowland team is promoted and a North side come down. That decision was to play with 19 - if a repeat occurred then they would split. Were a licenced team outwith the HFL apply to join, why do you think they would be refused? It's all academic anyway, BoD and Golspie aren't going to be applying anytime soon and there's no other licenced clubs in the pipeline.

[FairWeatherFan]

In the Lowland League forum someone posted the rules/constitution of the League to explain their promotion/relegation. Which made me wonder if the Highland League's constituion is available online as well, and it is http://www.highlandfootballleague.com/History/Item/2017-18 SHFL Constitution & Rules approved by the AGM on 29 May 2017.pdf

Basically proves the issue that clubs are open to apply and until someone does everything else is pure speculation.

 

 

[Jambo'ness]

22 hours ago, honestly united said:

Surely the Juniors is just a much a closed shop? 

Surely the juniors should be showing the way and opening up the bottom tiers of their leagues to the winners of amateur leagues to show how a forward thinking pyramid should work?

Definitely not a closed shop as can be evidenced by the fluid membership over the years.  Clubs have come and gone regularly.

[honestly united]

46 minutes ago, Jambo'ness said:

Definitely not a closed shop as can be evidenced by the fluid membership over the years.  Clubs have come and gone regularly.

As they have in senior football, yet the pyramid is being branded as such

[Robert James]

On 09/02/2018 at 09:30, FairWeatherFan said:

In the Lowland League forum someone posted the rules/constitution of the League to explain their promotion/relegation. Which made me wonder if the Highland League's constituion is available online as well, and it is http://www.highlandfootballleague.com/History/Item/2017-18 SHFL Constitution & Rules approved by the AGM on 29 May 2017.pdf

Basically proves the issue that clubs are open to apply and until someone does everything else is pure speculation.

 

 

Helpful extract from the constitution, thanks.

So not a "closed shop", but not a fluid  "pyramid" either. Promotion rules/criteria within the pyramid from the EoSL and SoSL to the Lowland are clear, whereas  promotion to the Highland League is by 'grace and favour' voting only.