The Aberdeen Mega-Hyper New Stadium Thread

[DA Baracus]

Because Aberdeen don't average 18k. Why would more fans start attending games regularly just because they have a new stadium?

[HibeeJibee]

You don't/shouldn't build to your average, though.

It may drive-up ST sales from fear of missing out... and allow you to drive-up prices due to demand... but it equally means not realising thousands of potential sales for big games, plus alienating those locked-out.

[jamamafegan]

This is something like what Aberdeen should build. Malmo's Stadion. 22,500 capacity (18,000 seats plus standing). A two tiered stadium with a single tier with rail seats behind one goal for the 'Red Shed' ultras. Glorious.

[coprolite]

31 minutes ago, jamamafegan said:

Some examples of crowds over 18k:

Last season, Aberdeen vs Dundee United aka "Fergie Day" - 18,719

February 2019, Aberdeen 2 Rangers 4 - 19,190

July 2018 Aberdeen 1 Burnley 1 - 20,313

December 2018, Aberdeen 3 Celtic 4 - 20,027

July 2017, Aberdeen 2 Apollon Limassol 1 - 20,085 

There are loads more examples. And that's mainly just for Old Firm matches and European qualifiers.  What happens if Aberdeen make it to the group stages of European competition, such is their ambition? With the introduction of the Europa Conference League it's more likely than ever that Aberdeen could be competing in European group stage football in the coming seasons - possibly even next season given they are currently 3rd just now. You'd expect them to comfortably break the 18,000 barrier for all of those games. Everyone knows the fanbase is there - we all remember "Parkred" and the 40,000 Dons fans who descended into Glasgow. Why Cormack and the rest of the Aberdeen board can't see this completely baffles me.

 

Say we miss out on 2,000 ticket sales six times a season, at average £25 a ticket that's £300k, max. That's not going to pay the interest on an additional £10m even before additional costs are taken into account. 

I would like a bigger stadium and would like to think we can grow our attendances to fill it. 

Bit i can understand why the people forking out for it might not want to. 

[gannonball]

22 minutes ago, HibeeJibee said:

You don't/shouldn't build to your average, though.

It may drive-up ST sales from fear of missing out... and allow you to drive-up prices due to demand... but it equally means not realising thousands of potential sales for big games, plus alienating those locked-out.

I would imagine Hibs barely ever selling out for years shows is a sign not to waste extra on seats that are lucky to be filled once a season, not really a return on your investment. Those who miss out cant really complain given if you even make a couple of games a season your near enough guaranteed a seat for the big game. Build a moderate stadium with expansion plans built in to the architecture and planning also agreed should you find demand grows.

Edited December 9, 2022 by gannonball

[HibeeJibee]

9 minutes ago, gannonball said:

I would imagine Hibs barely ever selling out for years shows is a sign not to waste extra on seats that are lucky to be filled once a season, not really a return on your investment. Those who miss out cant really complain given if you even make a couple of games a season your near enough guaranteed a seat for the big game. Build a moderate stadium with expansion plans built in to the architecture and planning also agreed should you find demand grows.

You've missed the point though.

Hibs rebuilt raising capacity from 16k to 20k, last stage of which at a time when average was 11k-12k.

Average is now 16k-18k.

It wouldn't be if rebuilt smaller.

There cannot be many instances of a club building a new stadium to replace an existing all-seated ground and deciding to downsize capacity to roughly existing average. By definition that average is a mix of higher/lower crowds, and you can't just throw up new tier or stand quickly.

Edited December 9, 2022 by HibeeJibee

[gannonball]

9 minutes ago, HibeeJibee said:

You've missed the point though.

Hibs rebuilt raising capacity from 16k to 20k, last stage of which at a time when average was 11k-12k.

Average is now 16k-18k.

It wouldn't be if rebuilt smaller.

To be fair hibs situation is slightly different as they were able  to do at same ground and stand a time which helped gauge demand over that period but tbh after the last stand was built the attendances were pretty low for ages and even now over a decade later it hardly ever really sells out.

Edited December 9, 2022 by gannonball

[VincentGuerin]

1 hour ago, Merkland Red said:

Cost may not be the only driver.

Away fan parking is behind the South Stand. That would need to go elsewhere during renovation. 

Merkland Stand has fairly newish builds behind them.

Main Stand has older, small houses that the homeowners have probabky resided in for decades, as well as the clubs parking lot.

Mods, please.

[VincentGuerin]

31 minutes ago, HibeeJibee said:

Hibs rebuilt raising capacity from 16k to 20k, last stage of which at a time when average was 11k-12k.

Average is now 16k-18k.

 

21 minutes ago, gannonball said:

To be fair hibs situation is slightly different as they were able  to do at same ground and stand a time which helped gauge demand over that period but tbh after the last stand was built the attendances were pretty low for ages and even now over a decade later it hardly ever really sells out.

Hibs' average in the first season with the new stand and increased capacity went down by almost 500. The following season it dropped again really sharply to less than 10k. Not sure how many times they've filled it.

Also, Hibs have remained in a central location. Where Aberdeen go would have a big impact on what would happen to attendance. A team doing no better than ok in a stadium that's annoying to get to is unlikely to grow the crowds. A team doing ok in a brand new central location may well.

[topcat(The most tip top)]

1 hour ago, gannonball said:

I would imagine Hibs barely ever selling out for years shows is a sign not to waste extra on seats that are lucky to be filled once a season, not really a return on your investment. Those who miss out cant really complain given if you even make a couple of games a season your near enough guaranteed a seat for the big game. Build a moderate stadium with expansion plans built in to the architecture and planning also agreed should you find demand grows.

Although Hearts selling out for run of the mill games against Livingston and St Johnstone  might be as sign that saving money by building less capacity could be a false economy.

You don't need to sell out every week or even most weeks to justify the investment in additional capacity

It's a difficult balance to strike

The precise level required will depend on the cost of capital, ticket prices and construction prices but when we were discussing the new stand at Tynecastle I calculated that if you can get three or four sell outs for an average season you've not overinvested, mind you interest rates were cheaper back then

And while having more empty seats than full is never good for atmosphere there are definite advantages to being "busy but not packed" it means that people can still get 4 seats together and don't have to sit down at pitch level unless they want to.

Edited December 9, 2022 by topcat(The most tip top)

[Leith Green]

51 minutes ago, gannonball said:

To be fair hibs situation is slightly different as they were able  to do at same ground and stand a time which helped gauge demand over that period but tbh after the last stand was built the attendances were pretty low for ages and even now over a decade later it hardly ever really sells out.

There are only 2 clubs who can really sustain success over a long enough period that would enable them to "sell out" their own stadium over more than a season or two.

For Hibs it makes some sense for us to have a stadium with that capacity. Usually only 75% of it is given to the home fans, and even over the last couple of dire football years our ST numbers fill most of the home end with some walkup tickets. Obviously we make a decent amount from matches v Rangers, Celtic and Hearts, who are the only clubs who get close to filling the away end.

I dont see why Aberdeens new build would be much different on that front and also, would a 2000 or so smaller capacity save much on the building front? I dont know, but over the years it could be a lot of lost income for those big away supports.

[VincentGuerin]

42 minutes ago, topcat(The most tip top) said:

Although Hearts selling out for run of the mill games against Livingston and St Johnstone  might be as sign that saving money by building less capacity could be a false economy.

Depends how you view this. I think our capacity being what it is is part of why we have so many STs. We've seen for the last couple of decades that when Hearts have a semi-decent team, Tynecastle will be full/almost full pretty often. This summer, people knew that crowds were going to be high, knew there were European games on the go, and we obviously got the Cup Final run bounce.

But the STs selling quickly alerted people to the fact that the window was closing to get one, and I reckon that will have pushed a few waverers towards buying one. That leads to buying a walk-up ticket sharpish being a must for non-ST holders, so the sold out signs go up for even run-of-the-mill league games. It's a snowball effect.

In short, had our capacity been, say 25,000, I'm not sure we'd have sold as many STs.

I think where we are is roughly right. When demand is high, we've got a system (ticket exchange), and when demand is low, the place isn't too big.

Edited December 9, 2022 by VincentGuerin

[jamamafegan]

Another template for a two tiered stadium: FC Sochaux-Montbéliard's Stade Auguste Bonal. Capacity: 20,025. I prefer Malmos ground though. Always think it's nice to have at least one stand look different to give the ground a bit of character.

 

Aberdeen fans will also remember FC Groningen's Euroborg Stadium. Capacity 22,500. Cost 45.5 million Euros to build - just over double what the new Aberdeen beach stadium has been priced at!

 

[VincentGuerin]

7 minutes ago, jamamafegan said:

 

Aberdeen fans will also remember FC Groningen's Euroborg Stadium. Capacity 22,500. Cost 45.5 million Euros to build - just over double what the new Aberdeen beach stadium has been priced at!

 

Opened in 2006. Think the bill might be a bit higher now.

[Sergeant Wilson]

9 hours ago, jamamafegan said:

Another template for a two tiered stadium: FC Sochaux-Montbéliard's Stade Auguste Bonal. Capacity: 20,025. I prefer Malmos ground though. Always think it's nice to have at least one stand look different to give the ground a bit of character.

 

Aberdeen fans will also remember FC Groningen's Euroborg Stadium. Capacity 22,500. Cost 45.5 million Euros to build - just over double what the new Aberdeen beach stadium has been priced at!

 

How much?

 

[Leith Green]

10 hours ago, jamamafegan said:

Aberdeen fans will also remember FC Groningen's Euroborg Stadium. Capacity 22,500. Cost 45.5 million Euros to build - just over double what the new Aberdeen beach stadium has been priced at!

I thought the beach stadium was costed at £80m?

IIRC, Kingsford started at £40, but Cormack said it might be £60m

I think the beach is a far better location than Kingsford - but then I dont like out of town stadiums for any number of reasons (transport and bevvy being the main ones).

eta - aye, it was £80m  !  https://www.pressandjournal.co.uk/fp/news/aberdeen-aberdeenshire/4924585/aberdeen-fc-new-stadium/

[DA Baracus]

Which fictional new ground will be ready first, Dundee's or Aberdeen's?

[jamamafegan]

2 hours ago, Leith Green said:

I thought the beach stadium was costed at £80m?

IIRC, Kingsford started at £40, but Cormack said it might be £60m

I think the beach is a far better location than Kingsford - but then I dont like out of town stadiums for any number of reasons (transport and bevvy being the main ones).

eta - aye, it was £80m  !  https://www.pressandjournal.co.uk/fp/news/aberdeen-aberdeenshire/4924585/aberdeen-fc-new-stadium/

Aye I meant half of not double - my bad 

[Leith Green]

25 minutes ago, jamamafegan said:

Aye I meant half of not double - my bad 

Sounds like what I hope my wife spends on Christmas v Reality

[Irrational Behaviour]

Either redevelop Pittodrie or build a new stadium at the old Richards Textiles site on Hutcheon Street.