The Aberdeen Mega-Hyper New Stadium Thread

[EdTheDuck]

Incidentally, earlier in the thread I pointed out that Hibs have only had a +15,000 average once in the last 40 years. The same applies to us. If a redeveloped Pittodrie had a capacity of 16,000 it would have been big enough for all but 3 seasons in the last 50 years.

Oh I know every so often we get a 20,000 but it's pretty fucking rare and having a 20,000 concrete box in the middle of nowhere with an average of 10,000 because it's a concrete box in the middle of nowhere is what we'll end up with in pretty short order because it's in the middle of fucking nowhere and harder to get to...and all the pubs are 8 miles away

[Dominique Malonga]

Can you no just put all the stands on wheels and move it down a bit so you have space ?

[topcat(The most tip top)]

Incidentally, earlier in the thread I pointed out that Hibs have only had a +15,000 average once in the last 40 years. The same applies to us. If a redeveloped Pittodrie had a capacity of 16,000 it would have been big enough for all but 3 seasons in the last 50 years.
Oh I know every so often we get a 20,000 but it's pretty fucking rare and having a 20,000 concrete box in the middle of nowhere with an average of 10,000 because it's a concrete box in the middle of nowhere is what we'll end up with in pretty short order because it's in the middle of fucking nowhere and harder to get to...and all the pubs are 8 miles away

Aberdeen are basically out of sync with just about everyone else

When the Taylor report happened Rangers and Aberdeen had all seater stadia and so didn't need to embark on the major infrastructure spending that everyone else did. This was a clear advantage at the time but also means that their infrastructure is now out of date compared to those that were forced to refurbish.

[Menzel]

3 hours ago, Henderson to deliver ..... said:

 

Where do you train atm ? 

Dens Park

[lubo_blaha]

2 hours ago, lubo_blaha said:

Anyway, despite Hibs' previous attempt to relocate to Aberdeen, there's far too much of their supporters on this thread. Lets get back on topic.

AFC own quite a lot of land around Pittodrie, as shown in pic below (no, I do not have Parkinson's) but not a lot if it is useful expansion wise. We've got plenty behind the RDS (the one stand not needing redeveloped), a public street behind the Main Stand, which already has a small footprint, with a car park across the road. There's another car park behind the away section of the South Stand but only a couple of metres of space behind two thirds of the stand with the added complication that the stand is effectively terracing built on a hill. The club could've purchased the land where the flats are years ago but it was deemed too expensive. The Merkland Stand also has a street behind it with little space between the road and back of the stand as it is.

Milne claims a redeveloped Pittodrie would have a capacity of 12,000. With the RDS behind the goals already holding 6100, it's hard to see how this could be the case but its probably safe to assume we couldn't match 20,000 on the current footprint with modern building regulations. We could maybe build three stands over the course of a decade or so to get a capacity of around 16,000 but it would be incredibly expensive and we obviously wouldn't have the benefit of the funds from the sale of the ground. Redeveloping Pittodrie is probably doable but it would be very difficult, both financially and logistically, and would leave us with an even more lop-sided ground.

A batshit crazy plan would be to flip the pitch 90 degrees, extend the RDS into a 9000 seat monster along the sideline, demolish half of the now behind the goals South Stand. Pittodrie Street could lead into a tunnel under the end of the pitch onto Golf Road and new stands could be built in the Main Stand car park and opposite the RDS. We'd probably only have to play at Tannadice for three years...

It's worth also saying that we'd seriously struggle to fund 3 new stands without the sale of Pittodrie. The £50 million total figure includes £10 million for training facilities, £15-20 million from the sale of Pittodrie and £6 million saved from co-location of stadium and training facilities. Assuming the same finances were in place, this would leave approximately £15-20 million to redevelop three stands. For context, Hearts' new Main Stand has ran over its initial £12 million budget. 

[Menzel]

Aye but some Hibs fans are raging so we should definitely, definitely spend whatever necessary on Pittodrie. They won the cup, you see. 

[lubo_blaha]

21 minutes ago, topcat(The most tip top) said:

 

Aberdeen are basically out of sync with just about everyone else

When the Taylor report happened Rangers and Aberdeen had all seater stadia and so didn't need to embark on the major infrastructure spending that everyone else did. This was a clear advantage at the time but also means that their infrastructure is now out of date compared to those that were forced to refurbish.

 

A very valid point. We've went from having leadership that was very much ahead of the curve to now being about 20 years behind it.

[topcat(The most tip top)]

It's worth also saying that we'd seriously struggle to fund 3 new stands without the sale of Pittodrie. The £50 million total figure includes £10 million for training facilities, £15-20 million from the sale of Pittodrie and £6 million saved from co-location of stadium and training facilities. Assuming the same finances were in place, this would leave approximately £15-20 million to redevelop three stands. For context, Hearts' new Main Stand has ran over its initial £12 million budget. 

Although the stand is only about half the structure

Hibs, relatively basic, East Stand was about half that. £1,000/seat seems about the going rate these days but Aberdeen have historically relied heavily on corporate hospitality so you can't do all the stands at that rate.

One of the reasons why the new stand at Tynecastle had to be so expensive is that the other 3 are relatively minimalist

[EdTheDuck]

21 minutes ago, lubo_blaha said:

It's worth also saying that we'd seriously struggle to fund 3 new stands without the sale of Pittodrie. The £50 million total figure includes £10 million for training facilities, £15-20 million from the sale of Pittodrie and £6 million saved from co-location of stadium and training facilities. Assuming the same finances were in place, this would leave approximately £15-20 million to redevelop three stands. For context, Hearts' new Main Stand has ran over its initial £12 million budget. 

Aberdeen do not have the feelgood factor that currently buoys Hibs. We do not have the near-death of our club that has motivated the Hearts support to do what they have done over the last few years and continue to do with 16,000 attendances every other week. We don't even have the 'badge of honour' that sees 50,000 at Ibrox to watch a comparatively abysmal Rangers team.

Moving to Westhill would in the long term (and maybe even the short term) do far more harm than the expensive option of staying at Pittodrie. What if the McInnes' replacement is another Alex Miller or Mark McGhee or even Craig Brown? Bottom 6 ad infinitum and cup defeats to First Division teams or hammerings from our peers? The 9,500 average just a few years ago would seem like The Golden Age by comparison.

Whichever way you look at it the club is facing substantial, long term debt and the only thing they might keep it in the credit column is the goodwill of the (majority) city based fans

Edited August 16, 2017 by EdTheDuck

[topcat(The most tip top)]

A very valid point. We've went from having leadership that was very much ahead of the curve to now being about 20 years behind it.

Although to be fair it's not as if the people in charge of other clubs wouldn't have procrastinated if they could have

Falkirk tried anyway

[RussellAnderson]

Aberdeen do not have the feelgood factor that currently buoys Hibs. We do not have the near-death of our club that has motivated the Hearts support to do what they have done over the last few years and continue to do with 16,000 attendances every other week. We don't even have the 'badge of honour' that sees 50,000 at Ibrox to watch a comparatively abysmal Rangers team.
Moving to Westhill would in the long term (and maybe even the short term) do far more harm than the expensive option of staying at Pittodrie. What if the McInnes' replacement is another Alex Miller or Mark McGhee or even Craig Brown? Bottom 6 ad infinitum and cup defeats to First Division teams or hammerings from our peers? The 9,500 average just a few years ago would seem like The Golden Age by comparison.
Whichever way you look at it the club is facing substantial, long term debt and the only thing they might keep it in the credit column is the goodwill of the (majority) city based fans

But we've only recently become debt free, largely down to generosity. A huge chunk of the previous debt was from money spent patching up Pittodrie.

Do you suggest we wait until Pittodrie literally becomes an unviable option? Or do you have a better idea?

[Lebowski]

It's worth also saying that we'd seriously struggle to fund 3 new stands without the sale of Pittodrie. The £50 million total figure includes £10 million for training facilities, £15-20 million from the sale of Pittodrie and £6 million saved from co-location of stadium and training facilities. Assuming the same finances were in place, this would leave approximately £15-20 million to redevelop three stands. For context, Hearts' new Main Stand has ran over its initial £12 million budget. 

Hibs 6k east stand cost 6m, and it was in a similar sized footprint to the one the away fans are in at Pittodrie (south?). I'm assuming most of your hospitality etc is in the Richard Donald stand? That's where a lot of Hearts spending has went.

It's looking unlikely, but I hope you do find a way to stay at Pittodrie. Always liked the place, despite the hypothermia.

[EdTheDuck]

5 minutes ago, RussellAnderson said:

 

But we've only recently become debt free, largely down to generosity. A huge chunk of the previous debt was from money spent patching up Pittodrie.

Do you suggest we wait until Pittodrie literally becomes an unviable option? Or do you have a better idea?

In the 10 years between 1998 and 2007 Aberdeen FC traded at a cumulative loss of almost £20M.   10 straight years of trading losses ranging from half a million quid to over £3M. On turnovers that never bettered £8M. This had nothing to do with patching up Pittodrie or building the RDS, it had everything to do with hopeless financial management.

I suggest we start work on Pittodrie now to bring it up to code even if that means a final capacity of 16,000. The training facilty does not have to be attached to the stadium. We are going into major debt whatever happens, at least if we stay in the middle of town we might be able to ride out the tough years ahead (and there will be tough years) with attendances of 10,000 or so because we are still in the town centre.

IMO if we go to Westhill and run into trouble on the park an average 10,000 will be a wet dream.

[lubo_blaha]

8 minutes ago, EdTheDuck said:

Aberdeen do not have the feelgood factor that currently buoys Hibs. We do have the near-death of our club that has motivated the Hearts support to do what they have done over the last few years and continue to do with 16,000 attendances every other week. We don't even have the 'badge of honour' that sees 50,000 at Ibrox to watch a comparatively abysmal Rangers team.

Moving to Westhill would in the long term (and maybe even the short term) do far more harm than the expensive option of staying at Pittodrie. What if the McInnes' replacement is another Alex Miller or Mark McGhee or even Craig Brown? Bottom 6 ad infinitum and cup defeats to First Division teams or hammerings from our peers? The 9,500 average just a few years ago would seem like The Golden Age by comparison.

Whichever way you look at it the club is facing substantial, long term debt and the only thing they might keep in the credit column is the goodwill of the (majority) city based fans

A poor team with nothing to get behind will attract poor crowds wherever they're playing. I remember seeing us beat Hibs at Pittodrie under Craig Brown in front of 6000 fans. The hardcore fans got us through those times and thankfully they'll probably be the ones who persevere with shuttle buses and traffic through the tough times. What the new facilities will do is be a selling point to new players (and managers) coming in which will hopefully minimise the chances of us getting back in that situation.

Don't understand the point you're trying to make in the first paragraph either. So far this season we've had 17,000, 20,000 and 15,000 home crowds, all bigger than crowds for similar games have been over the last few seasons. Hibs and Hearts crowds have experienced a bounce as you've mentioned but I'm not sure what relevance is to Kingsford. I don't think we're going to surpass the attendances at Ibrox any time soon either.

[lubo_blaha]

14 minutes ago, Lebowski said:

Hibs 6k east stand cost 6m, and it was in a similar sized footprint to the one the away fans are in at Pittodrie (south?). I'm assuming most of your hospitality etc is in the Richard Donald stand? That's where a lot of Hearts spending has went.

It's looking unlikely, but I hope you do find a way to stay at Pittodrie. Always liked the place, despite the hypothermia.

The Main Stand has a row of hospitality boxes that you can barely see under the roof. It also has the changing rooms, offices, gym, canteen, reception, boardroom etc. which would all need to be replaced.  

[scotfree]

9 hours ago, Elixir said:

Imaging having that middle of nowhere disaster as your permanent new home and having to look on at what Hearts and Hibs now have in the heart of our nations historic capital. 

Brutal.

Hopefully it goes ahead as the ruin it will leave Aberdeen in for years to come will be glorious.

What happen's if it doesn't get the green light?

[EdTheDuck]

13 minutes ago, lubo_blaha said:

A poor team with nothing to get behind will attract poor crowds wherever they're playing. I remember seeing us beat Hibs at Pittodrie under Craig Brown in front of 6000 fans. The hardcore fans got us through those times and thankfully they'll probably be the ones who persevere with shuttle buses and traffic through the tough times. What the new facilities will do is be a selling point to new players (and managers) coming in which will hopefully minimise the chances of us getting back in that situation.

Don't understand the point you're trying to make in the first paragraph either. So far this season we've had 17,000, 20,000 and 15,000 home crowds, all bigger than crowds for similar games have been over the last few seasons. Hibs and Hearts crowds have experienced a bounce as you've mentioned but I'm not sure what relevance is to Kingsford. I don't think we're going to surpass the attendances at Ibrox any time soon either.

What I'm getting at is that last season our average attendance actually fell from 13,094 to 12,453 despite, on paper, a better season. Aberdeen don't have the benefit of a significant event such as the actual death of our club, the near death of our club or a major cup win and championship to create a situation where fans are motivated to come to our rescue or just bask in the warmth of relative success.

WTF makes you think I was suggesting 50,000?

BTW I have no faith that new facilities will attract better players or managers. The managers that have been appointed by the boardroom incumbents have, for the last 20 years, been fucking donkeys. The appointment of Derek McInnes was a fluke. Why do you believe that new facilities will improve the choices of the directors?

If we move to the middle of nowhere it eminently possible you watch us beat Hibs in front of 3,000

Edited August 16, 2017 by EdTheDuck
stuff

[lubo_blaha]

What I'm getting at is that last season our average attendance actually fell from 13,094 to 12,453 despite, on paper, a better season. Aberdeen don't have the benefit of a significant event such as the actual death of our club, the near death of our club or a major cup win and championship to create a situation where fans are motivated to come to our rescue or just bask in the warmth of relative success.
WTF makes you think I was suggesting 50,000?

I agree with that to some extent, it explains why they've had larger crowds recently. Things change quickly in football though. A few years ago Hibs were a shambles with 9/10k crowds and Hearts weren't selling out Tynecastle. Every club has peaks and troughs. We may win the Scottish Cup in a couple of years or get taken over by a Lithuanian crook.

The new stadium will give us a bounce for a season or two at least, the club needs to maximise that afterwards. It may come down to the "feel good factor" or lack of, as you said.

[PauloPerth]

But redevelopment of Pittodrie could be done over a number of years, one stand at a time.  

The Merkland Road End and South Stand could be cleared completely and steel structure stands put in, completely covered with facilities underneath, the roof could curve round and join up. 

As both were just seats bolted onto terracing, you could make them steeper, move a couple of metres closer to the pitch behind the goal to fit more rows in. Higher stands, but not necessarily further back onto the road. The Merkland Stand could also curve round and join onto the Main Stand.  The Main Stand could sit in its existing footprint, or if being really ambitious build a second tier over the road like in the photo of Athletico's ground below. 

The info the Dons fan provided from the project manager about funding suggests, even with the sale of Pittodrie there will be a shortfall of £15-20m I think (haven't looked back). So why not allocate this amount to re-developing The current ground instead?

If cost makes it impossible, fair enough...  but I don't believe for one minute that modern stadium architects couldn't design a cracking ground for over 20,000 fans on the current site.

[Lebowski]

The Main Stand has a row of hospitality boxes that you can barely see under the roof. It also has the changing rooms, offices, gym, canteen, reception, boardroom etc. which would all need to be replaced.  

Build the other 2 sides first then? Do the Merkland first with a bigger capacity than now (must only hold about 3k?) then tolerate the reduced capacity for 6 months while the south is getting done. Do the main stand only when you are able to.

Hibs had talk of moving to Straiton a couple of times, but the fans kind of rebelled against it which stopped it happening. Easter Road got redeveloped, and that move would have killed us. Aberdeens support aren't as geographically concentrated around their stadium as Hibs I would think, but out of town stadiums with minimal public transport links seems pretty dangerous to me for the clubs future health.

I hope whatever happens works out for you fwiw.