Alternative visions for what an Independent Scotland could look like?

[MTB_again]

First of all I made a new account because I havent posted here since September 2014 and before that 2009, have no idea what my old passwords are for the email I signed up with but just curious where PnB stands these days regarding Independence.

I'm curious to know what older SNP members specifically think about the parties lurch to the Left since New Labour imploded in the mid//late 2000's?  Many of their most fringe groups realised there was no route to a full on socialist state through Westminister, so they jumped ship to the SNP and with it came a shift away from arguing for independence on economic grounds and more so on ideological grounds.

I have to admit personally feeling a little alienated after initially welcoming anybody willing to support independence in Scotland, I'm 100% for independence but I'm also totally against EU membership (in its all or nothing state at least), mass immigration,  higher taxes, increasing welfare and lots of other cliche conservative trope.

Since the referendum and the constitutional question taking sides on the old political spectrum (indy left, union right), now I can only see it as being damaging for independence as whether the fringe left like it or not, Scotland IS a traditionally conservative country that values equal opportunity rather than the socialists equal reward.  Providing a base for mechanical ingenuity, mercantilism, the arts, sciences and whatever other fields to flourish are about enabling the brightest individuals to succeed and reap the benefits themselves, rather than the collective view that somehow the success of the individual should benefit everyone through redistribution.  Ongoing policies such as free health care and universal free higher education are uniquely Scottish traits of the Scottish brand of conservatism, the English or even worse the disgusting US model for higher education funding seems totally alien to us, where generally we believe people from all backgrounds should be given a fair platform they need to prove themselves.

The genuine grievances of the working class in Scotland with regards to social mobility, wages and quality of life were why we had the Labour movement, it was a necessity of its time and today for different reasons its required again, not because minority fringe groups need a platform but because like 100 years ago theres almost no option for social mobility among the lowest earners.  The poverty trap is very real, we've been in a see-saw battle for the past 2 decades between being better off on government support or on minimum wage, with more and more being caught into the trap as the numbers increase, if theres a way to fix that without completely obliterating the property market I've no idea but thats what the modern Labour party should be talking about.

I've already written too much but why stop now. 
You know it wasnt that long ago the SNP were called tartan tories because all they did was campaign on how much more money we could have and they were still getting 25-30% of the votes, ideologically they were neutral.  I'm not suggesting that there wasnt liberals among that number but we only started to see spikes in the SNPs vote once the penny dropped on Blair and Brown, then we were fed the Miliband era.   As the working class realised there was no ground with new Labour, so did the most extreme of the red party.  The far left are parasites, they will piggyback on the old traditional grievances of the working class in England like they are doing with Corbyns Labour party.  In 2014 Alex rightfully opened the door for anyone with a pro indy view to share the top platforms but the extremists stayed behind with the SNP.  Their views on how society should be structured are so fringe and out of sync with reality that piggybacking is the only way they will ever see the light of day (believing everyone is equal rather just deserving equal opportunity) and we will see it reach its climax by the next election in Scotland, the battleground has already being drawn up with talk of universal basic income, who can go further to the left to give these people the most will be the debate.

That will hopefully be the end of Sturgeon, as shes making it impossible for many to vote for the SNP, almost for me at least but I can see the bigger picture for now.  She is one of the parasites who have subverted a popular movement in Scottish Independence, she would turn us into another Sweden where things have gone so far that children as young as 4 are given transgender study classes and the police in 2016 had to hand out 'please dont rape me' bracelets (https://www.express.co.uk/news/world/687294/Swedish-sex-attacks-police-wrist-bands-no-groping-migrant-assault), because the only way to prove how progressive you are is to make ever more minority groups feel extra equal.  Sadly she sees votes for independence as endorsement, which is tragically short sighted given theres no indy alternative, if you want it you HAVE to vote SNP.  My vote sure as fk shouldnt be considered endorsement for funding UBI experiments, I've made my MSP aware of it at least.

Sorry for the super long post but it seems I needed to type alot, well done to anyone thats read this far, like I said at the start I'd be interested to know if anyone else thinks the current SNP are actually damaging indyref2 chances?  How much should somebody like me overlook current policy with the end goal in mind, has the SNP already gone too far in assuming the role as the Green party for potential independence backers?  

[Loondave1]

Incoming !!!

[MTB_again]

6 minutes ago, Loondave1 said:

Incoming !!!

did I say something wrong

[dirty dingus]

Queen Nic - She is one of the parasites who have subverted a popular movement in Scottish Independence. Then linking to The Express. FFS. Away n get yer hole.

[MTB_again]

11 minutes ago, dirty dingus said:

Queen Nic

Do we really need 2 queens?  Could do without either, nothing wrong with asking a question, nobody should be above reproach.

Nic could put UBI in her next manifesto, I'll probably vote for the SNP every election until independence, they'll take the vote as endorsement for a party policy.  Its a legitimate problem with the constitutional question falling into leftvright politics.

[Glenconner]

Starting laughing when i read "lurch to the left".

Oh, Jeremy Corbyn..........

[Benjamin_Nevis]

Linking to the Express 

 

[gavin_3110]

Don't bother with the Politics section here MTB_Again. 

[Glenconner]

Green Ink Gang right enough.

Although i must admit it is bizarre the UK is left with a right wing Tory/DUP nutjob government because of Scottish voters electing 13 Tory MPs. 

[ICTChris]

My vision of an independent Scotland

 

[MTB_again]

32 minutes ago, Glenconner said:

Although i must admit it is bizarre the UK is left with a right wing Tory/DUP nutjob government because of Scottish voters electing 13 Tory MPs. 

Tactical voting should be criminal but it happens.  Even with a result like that its pretty much forgotten how the UK proportional representation vote ended up, the main argument against it was people would be too stupid to figure it out and they then voted in their millions to agree.

[PB 4.2]

 Well I voted Yes/Leave and would do the same again.   

With regards to the performance of Nicola Sturgeon she's out of touch with the nations desire for Indyref2.   The majority are not desperate for another vote, and many find the constant threats of Indyref2 a turn-off.   I don't think she fully understands this. 

On day-to-day matters shes great and schools Davidson and Leonard at FMQ and is a warm likeable person.  

I don't understand her obsession with the EU.   Jim Sillars isn't the 'old duffer' he's sometimes portrayed on here.   A vote offering EFTA terms would be more likely to carry imo than Independence tied to the EU. 

[MTB_again]

11 minutes ago, ICTChris said:

My vision of an independent Scotland

 

Nice imagery, I see you've been to London too, could be a scene from any point in brtains history since the dawn of the industrial revolution.

I think Scotland could do better, than plague masks and romans wont be coming back.

[Savage Henry]

20 minutes ago, ICTChris said:

My vision of an independent Scotland

 

So pretty much basing it on present day Munlochy, then?

[MTB_again]

23 minutes ago, PB 4.2 said:

I don't understand her obsession with the EU.

I like to think shes just doing whatever she can to agitate Westminster but given some of her other policies (like Universal Basic Income) I think she might actually be a believer in the pan European project, rather than just treating it like a big marketplace.
 
I dont understand how people who voted any other combination than Yes/Leave reconcile the fact that all the groups who came together to back No also came together to back Remain.  Every bank, every big corporation, the main political parties, the BBC and all the other kind institutions who obviously have our best interests at heart, all advocated for No and Remain.

[renton]

1 hour ago, MTB_again said:

I like to think shes just doing whatever she can to agitate Westminster but given some of her other policies (like Universal Basic Income) I think she might actually be a believer in the pan European project, rather than just treating it like a big marketplace.
 
I dont understand how people who voted any other combination than Yes/Leave reconcile the fact that all the groups who came together to back No also came together to back Remain.  Every bank, every big corporation, the main political parties, the BBC and all the other kind institutions who obviously have our best interests at heart, all advocated for No and Remain.

Easily.

Because the fundamental relationship between the United Kingdom nations are so different from those that drive the internal EU politics as to make a direct comparison nonsensical.

No nation is truly independent, no nation can stand alone and apart indefinitely. We are all interdependent. What I want is for Scotland to be able to choose the nature and depth of those relationships. I understand the core neo-liberalism of the EU makes it unattractive to many, but the levels of co-operation and trade between sovereign nations makes it worth it. The UK is not the same, it's if anything far more wedded to neo-liberal policies, offers Scotland little choice on how it arranges it's internal and external affairs and imposes on us any number of policies anathemic to Scots with little option but to concede. 

The corporations and banks don't like change - any change. Their ideal is a tomorrow that looks pretty much like yesterday. I can reconcile my choice to Yes/Remain because as an individual I can see that some change carries societal advantages, while other change does not.  Corporations as a whole tend not to care about society beyond the basic requirement that it should furnish them with a labour force.

Btw, what is your issue with UBI?

[Baxter Parp]

Scandinavian socialist republic in the EU, please.

[Glenconner]

1 hour ago, PB 4.2 said:

 Well I voted Yes/Leave and would do the same again.   

With regards to the performance of Nicola Sturgeon she's out of touch with the nations desire for Indyref2.   The majority are not desperate for another vote, and many find the constant threats of Indyref2 a turn-off.   I don't think she fully understands this. 

On day-to-day matters shes great and schools Davidson and Leonard at FMQ and is a warm likeable person.  

I don't understand her obsession with the EU.   Jim Sillars isn't the 'old duffer' he's sometimes portrayed on here.   A vote offering EFTA terms would be more likely to carry imo than Independence tied to the EU. 

Jim Sillars thought up the Independence in Europe idea for the SNP as a sop to fearty voters.

[Suspect Device]

1 hour ago, ICTChris said:

My vision of an independent Scotland

 

 

You beat me to it. I was going to post that as the yoons vision of Scotland and this as the Yessers vision.

 

Neither vision will be right though.

[NotThePars]

Balkanisation: a Glasgow Commune, the Fascist Republic of the Lothians, an actual Kingdom of Fife.

My main problem with UBI is that it might cement the nature of precarious labour and allow further wage stagnation which is precisely why people like Elon Musk support it. As a capitulation to neoliberalism, it’s depressing but as part of a broader left wing revolutionary strategy it could be great. I think it depends on who is implementing and why.