A Photographic History Of Scottish Football

[Dundee Hibernian]

3 hours ago, Monkey Tennis said:

How so?

The commentator was talking shite.  It looked so bad because the ref overruled the linesman's flag, but the guy lurking offside wasn't interfering at all.

 

Ray Tinkler found. 'The guy lurking offside'? 

2 hours ago, hk blues said:

Not necessarily - the 'old' offside rules didn't preclude using the 'not interfering with play' rule although it was often ignored.  The issue was more that the linesman's flag was raised which stopped the Leeds player in their tracks (and even the WBA player) but the ref overruled it and let play go on.  

A sore one if it was your team I'll agree.  

Aye, Colin Sugget was in the centre of the pitch, 15-20 yards offside, even Tony Brown stopped for a time as you say. You'd be fuming in those days if that goal was given  against your side, a terrible misjudgement by the ref. Officials were still giving these as offside in the 'nineties.

[Nowhereman]

16 hours ago, Dundee Hibernian said:

Immediately, I'm thinking of the match against West Brom at Elland Road: another harsh decision which went against Leeds. But that was back in 1971.

EDIT: looked that match up, it wasn't a pile of kids who came on, but mostly elderly spectators. Ray Tinkler was the referee. This is a Scottish football history section though, so I won't post the link to Jeff Astle's goal which caused the fury, but if interested, look it up, one of the worst decisions of the time, given the offside rules.

I watched that recently and what struck me was that the fans who invaded had shirt and tie on

[chopface]

On 09/02/2023 at 19:48, Flybhoy said:

Kenny Dalglish scores against England at Wembley in 1977.

I wonder why/when did the yellow Scotland flags fall out of favour?

[tamthebam]

On 20/02/2023 at 13:55, HibeeJibee said:

 

 

Note also the presence of 4 clubs within Linlithgowshire... Armadale, Bathgate, Bo'ness and Broxburn Utd... consistently averaging 7,000+ between them peaking at 9,269 in 1922-23 when they finished 5th-8th in Division Two.

During this period Armadale made Scottish Cup Qfs in 1919-20... Bo'ness in 1922-23, 1926-27, and 1930-31... plus Broxburn in 1924-25... beating likes of Ayr, Clyde, Falkirk, Hearts, Hibs, Raith and St Mirren along the way.

Broxburn failed to gain re-election in 1926 - a fate Bathgate and Armadale avoided in 1928 and Bo'ness (whose star shone brightest of all spending 1927-28 in top tier) in 1931. However in turn Bathgate resigned in early 1929 then both Armadale and Bo'ness were expelled in late 1932 for failing to pay gate guarantee. Thus ended any West Lothian representation in the Scottish League until Livingston bodysnatched Meadowbank Thistle over 60yrs later.

The problem the West Lothian (and other clubs) faced was the mid to late 1920s slump in the shale oil and mining industries followed by the Depression which saw a drop in income for many families as these were the major employers in West Lothian. 

The second Clydebank FC also faced problems at this time and were replaced by some upstarts called Edinburgh City in 1932. 

 

[HibeeJibee]

[Monkey Tennis]

20 hours ago, Dundee Hibernian said:

Ray Tinkler found. 'The guy lurking offside'? 

Aye, Colin Sugget was in the centre of the pitch, 15-20 yards offside, even Tony Brown stopped for a time as you say. You'd be fuming in those days if that goal was given  against your side, a terrible misjudgement by the ref. Officials were still giving these as offside in the 'nineties.

I still don't see what the referee "misjudged".  The player standing offside contributed nothing to the passage of play.

 The far far greater injustices of the period saw screamers disallowed because of someone standing innocuously offside elsewhere.  As said, Leeds were sometimes victims of this.  That's when sympathy was merited. 

 

Edited February 22, 2023 by Monkey Tennis

[Dundee Hibernian]

1 minute ago, Monkey Tennis said:

I still don't see what the referee "misjudged".  The player standing offside contributed nothing to the passage of play.

 

Fair enough: the offside rule has always been up for interpretation.

In the Elland Road case, Colin Sugget didn't touch the ball, but he was centrally positioned and clearly in an offside position, which Leeds players would have noticed. 

Think Bill Shankly argued if you aren't interfering with play, you shouldn't be on the park. 

[Monkey Tennis]

3 minutes ago, Dundee Hibernian said:

Fair enough: the offside rule has always been up for interpretation.

In the Elland Road case, Colin Sugget didn't touch the ball, but he was centrally positioned and clearly in an offside position, which Leeds players would have noticed. 

Think Bill Shankly argued if you aren't interfering with play, you shouldn't be on the park. 

Yes, a particularly witless observation by the old goat, which was used to justify some truly dreadful disallowing of good and important goals.

I'm glad the rules no longer allow for such an interpretation at all now.  Even back then though, such a reading was not mandatory or inevitable.

[Ewanandmoreagain]

2 hours ago, Monkey Tennis said:

I still don't see what the referee "misjudged".  The player standing offside contributed nothing to the passage of play.

 The far far greater injustices of the period was screamers disallowed because of someone standing innocuously offside elsewhere.  As said, Leeds were sometimes victims of this.  That's when sympathy was merited. 

 

A *** referee disallowed a Dundee Utd screamer in some cup final the ***s eventually cheated

[Specky Ginger]

8 minutes ago, Ewanandmoreagain said:

A *** referee disallowed a Dundee Utd screamer in some cup final the ***s eventually cheated

81/82 League Cup Final with United 1-0 up at the time.

[Monkey Tennis]

I referred to this one on here recently.  It was a Paul Sturrock 'goal'.

in my recollection, the offside player had been loitering out near the touchline.  On watching it again though, the offside player was pretty central and, I suppose, could be said to have blocked the goalkeeper's view.  He kind of ducked under the shot.

Peter Lorimer was famously the victim for Leeds in the European Cup final.  He also suffered similarly in an FA Cup semi-final in the late 60s.  

Goals like that were disallowed quite frequently.  It was incredibly frustrating, as well as usually both stupid and unjust.

Edited February 21, 2023 by Monkey Tennis

[hk blues]

17 hours ago, Nowhereman said:

I watched that recently and what struck me was that the fans who invaded had shirt and tie on

My old man always wore a shirt and tie to the match until the late eighties, maybe later.

[Melanius Mullarkey]

8 minutes ago, hk blues said:

My old man always wore a shirt and tie to the match until the late eighties, maybe later.

Nothing wrong with that.

 

[hk blues]

2 minutes ago, Melanius Mullarkay said:

Nothing wrong with that.

 

Uncanny - that's pretty much his initials!

[Specky Ginger]

It's the Wonga logo on the trackie bottoms that really adds the touch of class.

[Ewanandmoreagain]

15 hours ago, Specky Ginger said:

81/82 League Cup Final with United 1-0 up at the time.

Cheers.

Was it Paul Sturrock who was cheated in particular ?

 

[Ewanandmoreagain]

Sorry , see post X 6 above !

[Nowhereman]

16 hours ago, Monkey Tennis said:

I referred to this one on here recently.  It was a Paul Sturrock 'goal'.

in my recollection, the offside player had been loitering out near the touchline.  On watching it again though, the offside player was pretty central and, I suppose, could be said to have blocked the goalkeeper's view.  He kind of ducked under the shot.

Peter Lorimer was famously the victim for Leeds in the European Cup final.  He also suffered similarly in an FA Cup semi-final in the late 60s.  

Goals like that were disallowed quite frequently.  It was incredibly frustrating, as well as usually both stupid and unjust.

It was frustrating but I'm not sure that the current interpretation of the offside rule is any better

[Monkey Tennis]

2 minutes ago, Nowhereman said:

It was frustrating but I'm not sure that the current interpretation of the offside rule is any better

I think it's much better now, in a level player being onside, and in the idea of players being inactive.

The frustration for me comes in VAR being used to correct things that were a million miles from being clearly or obviously wrong in the first place.

[Nowhereman]

2 minutes ago, Monkey Tennis said:

I think it's much better now, in a level player being onside, and in the idea of players being inactive.

The frustration for me comes in VAR being used to correct things that were a million miles from being clearly or obviously wrong in the first place.

Agree with your first and third points but its the definition of inactive that can cause difficulties of interpretation. For example nowadays in the WBA v Leeds game Sugget would not be given offside but if he had ran on and received a pass from Astle and scored that would have been allowed. Its the whole first phase /second phase thing that I think can cause difficulties. He wasn't interfering initially but if he then scored he would undoubtedly be interfering