A Photographic History Of Scottish Football

[tamthebam]

Pinched from elsewhere: Whitehill's Dave Smith and Graeme Woodward take over at Links Park. They didn't last long but Dave Smith was Scotland's first black manager. Also a hard b*****d as a player! 

[HibeeJibee]

80yrs ago today... perseverance!

[Eednud]

Given modern international criteria it seems odd that Scotland couldn’t pick Joe Baker because he was born in England. Only player to have been capped for England without ever playing professionally in the English leagues.

 

 

 

[Arch Stanton]

1 hour ago, Eednud said:

Given modern international criteria it seems odd that Scotland couldn’t pick Joe Baker because he was born in England. Only player to have been capped for England without ever playing professionally in the English leagues.

 

 

 

He played for Arsenal and Nottingham Forest.

[Brother Blades]

21 minutes ago, Arch Stanton said:

He played for Arsenal and Nottingham Forest.

Possible he meant hadn’t played English League football when 1st capped? 

[Staggie52]

33 minutes ago, Brother Blades said:

Possible he meant hadn’t played English League football when 1st capped? 

He was the first player to be capped for England without having played in England prior to getting a cap.

[Eednud]

1 hour ago, Arch Stanton said:

He played for Arsenal and Nottingham Forest.

Also Sunderland

1 hour ago, Brother Blades said:

Possible he meant hadn’t played English League football when 1st capped? 

I did.

27 minutes ago, Staggie52 said:

He was the first player to be capped for England without having played in England prior to getting a cap.

Capped 5 times when still with Hibs in 1959 and 1960 then 3 with Arsenal in 1965 and 1966. He played against Scotland at Hampden in 1960, a 1-1 draw. He scored the opening goal twice v Northern Ireland in 1959 then again in 1965. Both 2-1 home wins at Wembley.

[Otis Blue]

On 13/08/2022 at 15:58, Dirty Sanchez said:

 

Quality clip that. 

[Austin McCann]

On 18/08/2022 at 12:21, Mr Heliums said:

The best thing about this BBC archive video comparing Edinburgh and Glasgow accents is the footage from outside Parkhead before a 1976 game against Hearts, including a boy asking for the traditional lift-over (at 1:43):

 

 

I love Billy Connolly, but what a load of shite.

[HibeeJibee]

Joe Baker isn't the only man to have debuted for England before playing in their domestic league. Owen Hargreaves (also born outside of England) and Jadon Sancho would be other examples.

Baker was the first, and thus also the first to be capped for England while not playing at an English club. He was followed by Gerry Hitchens a couple of years later during his spell at Inter Milan. As it happens Baker himself went to Italy at that time joining Torino alongside Denis Law who was presumably the first man capped for Scotland while playing outside of British leagues. Jimmy Greaves and John Charles are other examples who joined Serie A during 1960s.

Joe was born in Liverpool only 6 weeks before the family moved to Motherwell. His brother was born in New York and played for the USA. Their father was a seaman who died in the war.

He represented Scotland at schoolboy level, but of course he was attending a Scottish school. Obscure as it was even then, back in 1956 he also played for the East of Scotland JFA in an inter-league match against the Irish League B Division at Grosvenor Park in Belfast, while at Armadale Thistle before making his senior debut for Hibs. (Harry Melrose - who became a legend at Dunfermline then later captained Aberdeen - featured in the same match while at Dalkeith Thistle!).

He pops up all over the place. As well as his U23 and full caps for England, he played for them against the British Army in 1959 and 1960. That same year aged 19 he scored both goals for England to beat Young England in traditional FA Cup Final curtain raiser, then later appeared for Young England in 1961. He also represented England against the Football League in 1963 for FA's centenary.

Edited August 30, 2022 by HibeeJibee

[Eednud]

Thanks to @Arch Stanton winning the Quiz Cup in another forum it seems the player who scored Dundee’s third in a 3-10 loss to St Mirren at Westmarch in 1894 went on to manage Belgium to win the 1920 Antwerp Olympic Games Gold Medal. 

https://www.scottishsporthistory.com/sports-history-news-and-blog/the-scot-who-made-belgium-world-champions-willie-maxwell

 

[Monkey Tennis]

23 hours ago, HibeeJibee said:

Joe was born in Liverpool only 6 weeks before the family moved to Motherwell. 

I take it he spoke with a Scottish accent?  I don't think I've ever heard him in an interview.

[HibeeJibee]

1 hour ago, Monkey Tennis said:

I take it he spoke with a Scottish accent?

Indeed he did:


Joe Baker: An Englishman abroad (thefa.com)

He remained in Scotland for the remainder of his childhood - and many would claim his international affinity would have been more closely suited to the tartan of Scotland than the Lions of England. He spoke with a broad Scottish accent, and yet, could so easily have been among Alf Ramsey’s heroes, those whose names are forever etched in the annals of English football history. But how did it come to be that in the late 1950s, a man with faint affinity to England, come so close to becoming a World Cup winner with England?


How Joe Baker, one of Britain's most underrated strikers, saw his career turn after a tumultuous year at Torino (thesefootballtimes.co)

Goals were just the currencies Baker dealt in. Amazingly, his full England debut almost never came to pass. Having flown down to London from Scotland to meet up with the team, he reportedly got in a cab and asked to be taken to Hendon Hall. Suspicious as to why a man speaking with a Scottish accent would ask to be taken to the place where the England players were staying, the driver enquired about the destination again.

When Baker gave the same response, legend has it the driver called the police. So the Hibs striker found themselves trying to convince a sergeant that he was, in fact, playing for England and not some lunatic from north of the border intent in causing havoc at Hendon Hall.

When asked for identification, Baker proudly pointed to his picture on the back page of that day’s evening paper. At that point, the constable that had accompanied the sergeant on the scene reportedly quipped: “A Jock playing for England. Surely we ain’t that bad are we?”


Reluctant Sassenach Baker who pioneered the Beckham trail | Sport | The Guardian

Baker told the story brilliantly in a Radio Scotland documentary made not long before he died, speaking, of course, in his broad West of Scotland accent. "At Heathrow I jumped in a taxi and this cockney driver says 'Where are you going' so I told him the Hendon Hotel. The driver said 'That's where the England team stay' and I said 'Aye, I'm playing for them Wednesday night'. And the driver never said another thing for the next quarter of an hour." After the long silence, Baker noticed a police car roaring up behind them, and the next thing he knew the taxi had pulled over and two cops "with braided hats" came up to the window. The driver had been on his radio and called the police. He'd assumed he had a dangerous lunatic in the back of his cab.

"So you are playing for England, are you?" said one of the coppers sarcastically. Baker recalled: "I said 'Aye' and he didnae understand me. So I said 'Yes' instead. Luckily Desmond Hackett had written in the Daily Express that day 'Why bring a Scotsman to play for England?' and I had the paper. I said 'Look, that's me' and the policeman turned to his mate and said 'God, Fred. Are we that bad?'"

Baker scored a cracker on his debut and went on to win a further seven caps, almost making the 1966 squad.


Baker&Law (scotsfootballworldwide.scot)

Now it has been said that one of the reason's Joe Baker was dropped by Alf Ramsey was that firstly he did not consider Joe English, or at least not English enough and, secondly, his commitment was doubted. True it was also said that Joe's accent was so thick some of the other England players did not understand him but then football is not played with the tongue and the same question of nationality could be levelled at Alan Ball. By today's rules he might have played for Wales and he didn't exactly speak the Queen's English either. And as for commitment, playing up to the last minute of a game, setting up two chances, or continuing with a dislocated shoulder surely and literally scotches that as a suggestion.

Edited August 31, 2022 by HibeeJibee

[Lyle Lanley]

An 18-year-old Erling Haaland up against Efe Ambrose. 

 

[tamthebam]

Team sheet from Gretna's last ever game, a 1-0 victory over Hearts. Greg Fleming is still playing for Annan, a fine goalie and good guy you can have a bit of banter with.

[Raidernation]

Team sheet from Gretna's last ever game, a 1-0 victory over Hearts. Greg Fleming is still playing for Annan, a fine goalie and good guy you can have a bit of banter with.

Love the fact it has Gretna v ICT at the top. Cut and paste gone wrong?

[DA Baracus]

Not exactly either side's finest XI.

[Ranaldo Bairn]

9 hours ago, Raidernation said:

Love the fact it has Gretna v ICT at the top. Cut and paste gone wrong?

Sums them up.

10 hours ago, tamthebam said:

Team sheet from Gretna's last ever game, a 1-0 victory over Hearts. Greg Fleming is still playing for Annan, a fine goalie and good guy you can have a bit of banter with.

Barr, Thomson, Wallace, Ridgers, McGowan all still plugging away too.

PS Jamie Mole and Gary Glen up front 

[Mr. X]

 

A gas lantern slide from Tynecastle dated 1910.  It looks like Hearts v St. Mirren. 

One of the original stands in the background built about 1903

 

A clearer picture of the original stands. In this pic you can just about see the banked cycle track which was about to disappear due to the extension of the standing enclosures.

 

The stands only lasted until 1914 when they were replaced by the Archibald Leitch main stand running the full length of the pitch. This pic is from 1921.  Scottish XI verses Dick Kerr Ladies F.C.

Edited September 11, 2022 by Mr. X

[Dundee Hibernian]

Clyde fans on their way to the 1955 Cup Final. From David Ross' The Roar of the Crowd, published 2005.