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A Photographic History Of Scottish Football


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13 hours ago, Bogbrush1903 said:

Where's the Brighton girl? 

Fat corporate Johnstone, answer to the finest football quiz question*, Ally Mauchlen?, Chris Cattlin?

*If Sunderland did it in 1979, and Villa in 1981, who did it 1980?

It'd be one of the finest if it worked both verbally and written but it's only really works when written. 

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Today is of course Armistice Day marking the day in 1918 that WWI ended... Interestingly enough on VE Day in 1945 when WWII ended in Europe there were a number of impromptu matches organised to take advantage of the public holiday:

Victory in Europe Cup                       Celtic 1-1 Queen's Park                                      [Celtic won on corners]                        (at Hampden)
Rosebery Charity Cup                       Hibs 2-2 Hearts                                (15,252)     [Hibs won 7-6 on corners]
Forfarshire Cup SF 2nd leg             Dundee United 1-2 Dundee     (10,000)     [Dundee won 4-2 on aggregate]


Unsurprisingly details are quite sketchy - short notice, general hullabaloo, and the limited size newspapers at the time having the main news to report - so there may have been other games. Several were arranged in England such as Brentford v West Ham, Charlton v Millwall, Darlington v Middlesbrough, Newcastle v Sunderland, Sheffield Wed v Sheffield Utd, Stoke v Port Vale and Tranmere v Everton.

Before the VE Cup game at Hampden a brief service of thanksgiving was held. SFA AGM due that day got cancelled. However in Kirkcaldy magistrates fined 3 boys 5 shillings each for playing football on the street by West Esplanade Quarry... that seems pretty harsh.

Here's the VE Cup:

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Rangers were invited to face Celtic but declined, to better prepare for upcoming Southern League Cup Final v Motherwell.

Edited by HibeeJibee
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On 10/11/2021 at 18:23, Dundee Hibernian said:

Surely West Auckland FC were the first UK club to do so, in 1909 and repeating the feat in 1911, winning the Sir Thomas Lipton Trophy?

And reflecting the point about nicknames, some of their players were Bob 'Drol' Moore, Andy 'Chips' Appleby and the best of all, Charles 'Dirty' Hogg.

The feats were dramatised in 1982 film 'A Captain's Tale' starring Dennis Waterman, Andrew Keir and Tim Healy (as Charles 'Dirty' Hogg).

It's on YouTube>

 

Baddiel and Skinner lies !

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On 10/11/2021 at 10:09, Charles Stiles said:

The Aberdeen one is flexible. It's a charity shield/glorified friendly when engaging with Dons fans. It's major European trophy making them the only Scottish club with two European trophies when the the bigot brothers are involved. 

Three European trophies !

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10 hours ago, House Bartender said:

The subject of Rangers management is in the air today, I'm told.

From the old days, here's Scott Symon (centre) discussing the prospects of playing at Victoria Park in February 1967 amid a blizzard. The soft southerners influenced the ref as usual and the game was called off.

rcfcrfcvp.thumb.jpg.712f335f24f4a2d1030055e01f27c272.jpg

Think the year may be wrong, as there was only one Scottish Cup tie involving  a Rangers in Februray 1967 and that was at Easter Road. I'm guessing the photo was taken in 1966?

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22 hours ago, Eednud said:

Don’t forget Renton were the first World Champions beating West Bromwich Albion 4-1 in 1888.

 

551FD833-BCDB-4573-86D4-22BD7D24E670.gif

Pretty sure FA Cup winners Villa beat Scottish Cup Winners Hibs the year before. There may have been earlier examples. Would imagine QP must have had a claim to being world champions at some point.

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53 minutes ago, Small Bovine Maisonette said:

Pretty sure FA Cup winners Villa beat Scottish Cup Winners Hibs the year before. There may have been earlier examples. Would imagine QP must have had a claim to being world champions at some point.

I think Renton's fame was down to them actively promoting this game as the 'World Championship' plus there being a trophy put up for it which survives:

World-Cup-trophy-won-by-Renton-FC.jpg

There is a list on Wikipedia suggesting that Queen's Park, Vale of Leven, Dumbarton and Hibs all played games against the equivalent cup holder from down south in earlier years:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Football_World_Championship#Summary

On top of that it's also a myth that this amounted to a 'world championship' by merit of only the Scottish and English cups existing at the time: both the Welsh and Irish cups were underway by the early 1880s and the Durand Cup for India had also began the previous season although granted in those days that would have meant a considerable voyage by steamer!

It's also clear the match didn't exactly set the heather alight at the time... a crowd of 6,000 saw Renton v WBA at Hampden compared to 15,000 who saw the Scottish Cup Final there a few months before (on a day with more alternative matches in Glasgow); 10,000 who saw Scotland v England there a couple of months before; and so on - even comparatively unattractive Scotland v Wales on the unusual territory of Hibernian Park in Leith drew 8,000 earlier in the year. It's built-up a legend over time IMO.

EDIT: In that respect another interesting gauge is that 7 days earlier (also at Hampden) there were 5,000 at the Glasgow Charity Cup Final for Renton v Cambuslang; and earlier in season (again at Hampden) were 10,000 at the Glasgow Cup Final for Cambuslang v Rangers.

EDIT AGAIN: this is Second Hampden, later New Cathkin, btw.

Edited by HibeeJibee
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3 minutes ago, HibeeJibee said:

I think Renton's fame was down to them actively promoting this game as the 'World Championship' plus there being a trophy put up for it which survives:

World-Cup-trophy-won-by-Renton-FC.jpg

There is a list on Wikipedia suggesting that Queen's Park, Vale of Leven and Hibs had all played games against the equivalent cup holder from down south in earlier years:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Football_World_Championship#Summary

On top of that it's also a myth that this amounted to a 'world championship' by merit of only the Scottish and English cups existing at the time: both the Welsh and Irish cups were underway by the early 1880s and the Durand Cup for India had also began the previous season although granted in those days that would have meant a considerable voyage by steamer!

It's also clear the match didn't exactly set the heather alight at the time... a crowd of 6,000 saw Renton v WBA at Hampden compared to 15,000 who saw the Scottish Cup Final there a few months before (on a day with more alternative matches in Glasgow); 10,000 who saw Scotland v England there a couple of months before; and so on - even Scotland v Wales in the unusual territory of Hibernain park Edinburgh drew 8,000 earlier in the year. It's built up a legend.

https://playupliverpool.com/1888/05/19/renton-v-west-bromwich-4-1-friendly-may-19-1888/

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Reading the article it would suggest that maybe one of the reasons why the 1888 game stands out is because West Brom, unusually, had an entirely English team whereas most top English teams had attracted a smattering of Scottish talent. So it had more of a claim to being a real "Scotland vs England" game.

On the same theme, contemporary sources suggest that WBA had been very lucky to win the FA Cup in the first place, as the officials had deliberately favoured "English" West Brom against a Preston side full of Scottish "mercenaries" in the final.

Extract from Wikipedia: "The refereeing of the game by Major Francis Marindin was also questioned privately by many observers who felt that he had potentially shown bias towards Albion's all English eleven. At one point during the game he stopped play just as Preston were about to score to award a free kick to Albion despite no Albion player having made an appeal, as was required by the rules of the game at that time. Cambridge University captain Tinsley Lindley later commented to defeated Preston player Jack Ross "Well Jack, you cannot expect to win when playing against eleven men and the devil."

Apologies, I know, "Non-Photographic History of English Football" for this pish, but I thought it was interesting. Players not being able to get a decision unless they appeal for it, like in cricket, seems very quaint.

Edited by Small Bovine Maisonette
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21 minutes ago, Small Bovine Maisonette said:

Reading the article it would suggest that maybe one of the reasons why the 1888 game stands out is because West Brom, unusually, had an entirely English team whereas most top English teams had attracted a smattering of Scottish talent. So it had more of a claim to being a real "Scotland vs England" game.

On the same theme, contemporary sources suggest that WBA had been very lucky to win the FA Cup in the first place, as the officials had deliberately favoured "English" West Brom against a Preston side full of Scottish "mercenaries" in the final.

Extract from Wikipedia: "The refereeing of the game by Major Francis Marindin was also questioned privately by many observers who felt that he had potentially shown bias towards Albion's all English eleven. At one point during the game he stopped play just as Preston were about to score to award a free kick to Albion despite no Albion player having made an appeal, as was required by the rules of the game at that time. Cambridge University captain Tinsley Lindley later commented to defeated Preston player Jack Ross "Well Jack, you cannot expect to win when playing against eleven men and the devil."

Apologies, I know, "Non-Photographic History of English Football" for this pish, but I thought it was interesting. Players not being able to get a decision unless they appeal for it, like in cricket, seems very quaint.

I can think of a few players who seem to think that rule still exists.

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11 hours ago, Ewan8472 said:

Baddiel and Skinner lies !

I'm confused here as to what you mean, @Ewan8472 

David Baddiel was 17 and at school in Herts. when filming of 'The Captain's Tale' commenced, Frank Skinner was at university in the Midlands.

Here's a short 2019 video 'Our Cup of Tea' which factually documents West Auckland's achievements.

 

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This is bound to have been covered previously on this thread, apologies if so..

IMG_1277.JPG.c8490ea880093949f4e25e6b19fd2863.JPG

The Queens Park team that were the only Scottish side to play in an English FA Cup Final.

from wiki;

In 1883, Queen's returned to the FA Cup and reached the final, scoring resounding wins over Crewe Alexandra (10–0) and Manchester F.C. (15–0) en route, only to be defeated by Blackburn Rovers.  The match against Manchester was the first FA Cup tie to be staged in Scotland, hosted at Titwood, the home of Clydesdale Cricket Club. A year later Queens met Blackburn Rovers in the final once again, but Rovers won again.  The 1885–86 competition saw the first entries by other Scottish clubs, as Queen's were joined by Partick Thistle, Third Lanark, Rangers and Heart of Midlothian; but Rangers and Hearts withdrew without playing a match. These clubs all returned for the 1886–87 competition, along with newcomers Renton and Cowlairs.

In 1887, the Scottish Football Association banned its members from taking any further part in the FA Cup.  No more Scottish clubs participated until Gretna F.C. entered the competition in the 1980s. 

 

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