A Photographic History Of Scottish Football

[tamthebam]

10 hours ago, Drew Brees said:

Scottish schoolboys 1980, day before 5-4 win at Wembley. 
 

John Robertson was a Meadowbank Thistle ballboy in 1980 along with Dave Bowman 

His brother Chris "Rocky" Robertson played for Meadowbank.

[Tutankhamen]

5 hours ago, Jacksgranda said:

 

Started the trouble, imho...

Enclosure under the Main Stand for me.

I'll need to plead not guilty M'Lord.

[TheScarf]

20 hours ago, Drew Brees said:

Scottish schoolboys 1980, day before 5-4 win at Wembley. 
 

Most of those players look well into their 20s.

[Bogbrush1903]

The inappropriately named footballer Ally 'Benny' Brazil heading clear at what appears to be one the 1979 Scottish Cup Final replays.  Judging by the empty terraces behind him it seems a shrewd move to eventually call a halt to Cup Final replays...

Actually, in the first game and first replay only one substitute was available but for the 2nd replay two substitutes were available. Does anyone know why that was the case? I assume it was 1980/1981 that two subs was introduced and perhaps they used the second replay to test. All four subs, Alex Miller & Gordon Smith for Oldco and Bobby Hutchinson and Steve Brown for Hibs were utilised with Tommy Mclean, Kenny Wastson, Ralph Callachan and Tony Higgins making way...

 

 

Edited April 21, 2021 by Bogbrush1903

[LongTimeLurker]

On 18/04/2021 at 23:16, Lurkst said:

 

The term "sticky ball" certainly was used at the time. The fact the Old Firm avoided each other in 8 semi final draws out of 8 in that 20 year period is a bit more than suspicious.

Thought they were alleged to have heated the two in question on a radiator before putting them into a bag? Can well remember trying to convince older relatives that it almost certainly had to be fixed and being told not to be so daft because the SFA would never do something like that. Odds of 1 in 6561 or is there a flaw in how I am calculating it?

[Lurkst]

3 hours ago, Bogbrush1903 said:

Actually, in the first game and first replay only one substitute was available but for the 2nd replay two substitutes were available. Does anyone know why that was the case? I assume it was 1980/1981 that two subs was introduced and perhaps they used the second replay to test. All four subs, Alex Miller & Gordon Smith for Oldco and Bobby Hutchinson and Steve Brown for Hibs were utilised with Tommy Mclean, Kenny Wastson, Ralph Callachan and Tony Higgins making way...

I'm pretty sure Scottish football allowed 2 substitutes from when I started watching it in the mid 70s. England only had 1 sub until later.

Maybe the match records only mention the subs that were used?

IIRC by the time the 2nd replay came around there weren't even any highlights on TV, either the BBC were scunnered with it or there was a broadcasting strike (which did happen frequently then).

 

[Dundee Hibernian]

4 hours ago, Bogbrush1903 said:

The inappropriately named footballer Ally 'Benny' Brazil heading clear at what appears to be one the 1979 Scottish Cup Final replays.  Judging by the empty terraces behind him it seems a shrewd move to eventually call a halt to Cup Final replays...

Actually, in the first game and first replay only one substitute was available but for the 2nd replay two substitutes were available. Does anyone know why that was the case? I assume it was 1980/1981 that two subs was introduced and perhaps they used the second replay to test. All four subs, Alex Miller & Gordon Smith for Oldco and Bobby Hutchinson and Steve Brown for Hibs were utilised with Tommy Mclean, Kenny Wastson, Ralph Callachan and Tony Higgins making way...

 

 

Never noticed that before: two subs were introduced in 73-74, I think. There were two subs in that season's final, and it seems odd that only one per team was allowed in these first two games.

59 minutes ago, Lurkst said:

I'm pretty sure Scottish football allowed 2 substitutes from when I started watching it in the mid 70s. England only had 1 sub until later.

Maybe the match records only mention the subs that were used?

IIRC by the time the 2nd replay came around there weren't even any highlights on TV, either the BBC were scunnered with it or there was a broadcasting strike (which did happen frequently then).

 

The second replay was on the Monday night following a Wembley Scotland v England game: I mind getting off the train that night coming back from London, and not even knowing a Scottish Cup Final was getting played. There must have been two subs, I'll check with a boy that was at that match (on the pitch).

[Lurkst]

2 hours ago, Dundee Hibernian said:

Never noticed that before: two subs were introduced in 73-74, I think. There were two subs in that season's final, and it seems odd that only one per team was allowed in these first two games.

The second replay was on the Monday night following a Wembley Scotland v England game: I mind getting off the train that night coming back from London, and not even knowing a Scottish Cup Final was getting played. There must have been two subs, I'll check with a boy that was at that match (on the pitch).

Rangers used 2 subs in the 1977 final. This guy was one of them (had to image search him!)

[Dundee Hibernian]

15 minutes ago, Lurkst said:

Rangers used 2 subs in the 1977 final. This guy was one of them (had to image search him!)

That's Chris Robertson. 

 

Billy Urquhart and Alex Miller, and Steve Brown and Gordon Rae were subs in the first match of the '79 Final. Rae replaced Bobby Hutchison in the second match, swapping places. Rangers had the same two substitutes. I looked up the match reports. Beside the second final report was an league table showing Berwick Rangers winning the league, and moving up into the middle tier of three at that time. I'd forgotten all about this.

Here's a squad picture: 

[tamthebam]

2 hours ago, Dundee Hibernian said:

That's Chris Robertson. 

 

Billy Urquhart and Alex Miller, and Steve Brown and Gordon Rae were subs in the first match of the '79 Final. Rae replaced Bobby Hutchison in the second match, swapping places. Rangers had the same two substitutes. I looked up the match reports. Beside the second final report was an league table showing Berwick Rangers winning the league, and moving up into the middle tier of three at that time. I'd forgotten all about this.

Here's a squad picture: 

Yer other Davie Moyes. Miles harder than the more famous one.

[Lurkst]

3 hours ago, Dundee Hibernian said:

That's Chris Robertson. 

 

[johan scott]

6 hours ago, Dundee Hibernian said:

Never noticed that before: two subs were introduced in 73-74, I think. There were two subs in that season's final, and it seems odd that only one per team was allowed in these first two games.

The second replay was on the Monday night following a Wembley Scotland v England game: I mind getting off the train that night coming back from London, and not even knowing a Scottish Cup Final was getting played. There must have been two subs, I'll check with a boy that was at that match (on the pitch).

That’s right, it was May 1979, not 80 or 81.

[GordonS]

11 hours ago, LongTimeLurker said:

Thought they were alleged to have heated the two in question on a radiator before putting them into a bag? Can well remember trying to convince older relatives that it almost certainly had to be fixed and being told not to be so daft because the SFA would never do something like that. Odds of 1 in 6561 or is there a flaw in how I am calculating it?

There are 3 possible sets of ties in a semi final draw, so you have a 2 in 3 chance of avoiding a particular opponent. Do that 8 times in a row and it's approximately 4%, or a 1 in 25 chance. It's not that unlikely and it's the kind of odds you'll find somewhere in every cup draw.

[Tutankhamen]

10 hours ago, Dundee Hibernian said:

Never noticed that before: two subs were introduced in 73-74, I think. There were two subs in that season's final, and it seems odd that only one per team was allowed in these first two games.

The second replay was on the Monday night following a Wembley Scotland v England game: I mind getting off the train that night coming back from London, and not even knowing a Scottish Cup Final was getting played. There must have been two subs, I'll check with a boy that was at that match (on the pitch).

I was at the three cup games.

Plus an outstanding league game at Easter Rd v Rangers with 2000 others.

By that point Rangers had lost the second last league game at Celtic Park 4-2 and with it the league.

Edited April 22, 2021 by Tutankhamen

[LongTimeLurker]

7 hours ago, GordonS said:

There are 3 possible sets of ties in a semi final draw, so you have a 2 in 3 chance of avoiding a particular opponent. Do that 8 times in a row and it's approximately 4%, or a 1 in 25 chance. It's not that unlikely and it's the kind of odds you'll find somewhere in every cup draw.

If Old Firm semi is option 1 and there are options 2 and 3 as well. The first time around you have:

1 (1 in 3 or 33.3333% chance)

2

3

The next time to have it happen twice in a row:

1 1 (1 in 9 or 11.1111% chance. That is 3 to the power 2.

1 2

1 3

2 1

2 2

2 3

3 1

3 2

3 3

The next time to have it happen three times  in a row:

1 1 1 (1 in 27 or 3.7037% chance. That is 1 in 3 to the power 3.

1 1 2

1 1 3

1 2 1

1 2 2

1 2 3

1 3 1

1 3 2

1 3 3

2 1 1

2 1 2

2 1 3

2 2 1

2 2 2

2 2 3

2 3 1

2 3 2

2 3 3

3 1 1

3 1 2

3 1 3

3 2 1

3 2 2

3 2 3

3 3 1

3 3 2

3 3 3

So by 8 times in a row there is a 1 in 6561 (3 to the power 8 ) probability of it happening by chance rather than fraudulently.

If you don't believe me there are websites that explain this sort of stuff in more depth:

https://www.calculator.net/probability-calculator.html?cal4pa=0.33333&cal4par=8&cal4pb=0.3&cal4pbr=3&calctype=series&x=79&y=18#series

 

Edited April 22, 2021 by LongTimeLurker

[GordonS]

1 hour ago, LongTimeLurker said:

If Old Firm semi is option 1 and there are options 2 and 3 as well. The first time around you have:

1 (1 in 3 or 33.3333% chance)

2

3

The next time to have it happen twice in a row:

1 1 (1 in 9 or 11.1111% chance. That is 3 to the power 2.

1 2

1 3

2 1

2 2

2 3

3 1

3 2

3 3

The next time to have it happen three times  in a row:

1 1 1 (1 in 27 or 3.7037% chance. That is 1 in 3 to the power 3.

1 1 2

1 1 3

1 2 1

1 2 2

1 2 3

1 3 1

1 3 2

1 3 3

2 1 1

2 1 2

2 1 3

2 2 1

2 2 2

2 2 3

2 3 1

2 3 2

2 3 3

3 1 1

3 1 2

3 1 3

3 2 1

3 2 2

3 2 3

3 3 1

3 3 2

3 3 3

So by 8 times in a row there is a 1 in 6561 (3 to the power 8 ) probability of it happening by chance rather than fraudulently.

If you don't believe me there are websites that explain this sort of stuff in more depth:

https://www.calculator.net/probability-calculator.html?cal4pa=0.33333&cal4par=8&cal4pb=0.3&cal4pbr=3&calctype=series&x=79&y=18#series

 

That's based on the odds of them being drawn together 8 times in a row, not avoiding each other 8 times in a row. It's obviously more likely that two teams won't be drawn together than that they will, and the odds of avoiding each other are 2 in 3. 

Just by eyeballing it, it should be obvious that if something has a 67% chance of happening, then the chances of it happening twice in a row are never going to be as low at 11%.

FWIW, the probabilities are:

[Jacksgranda]

1 hour ago, LongTimeLurker said:

If Old Firm semi is option 1 and there are options 2 and 3 as well. The first time around you have:

1 (1 in 3 or 33.3333% chance)

2

3

The next time to have it happen twice in a row:

1 1 (1 in 9 or 11.1111% chance. That is 3 to the power 2.

1 2

1 3

2 1

2 2

2 3

3 1

3 2

3 3

The next time to have it happen three times  in a row:

1 1 1 (1 in 27 or 3.7037% chance. That is 1 in 3 to the power 3.

1 1 2

1 1 3

1 2 1

1 2 2

1 2 3

1 3 1

1 3 2

1 3 3

2 1 1

2 1 2

2 1 3

2 2 1

2 2 2

2 2 3

2 3 1

2 3 2

2 3 3

3 1 1

3 1 2

3 1 3

3 2 1

3 2 2

3 2 3

3 3 1

3 3 2

3 3 3

So by 8 times in a row there is a 1 in 6561 (3 to the power 8 ) probability of it happening by chance rather than fraudulently.

If you don't believe me there are websites that explain this sort of stuff in more depth:

https://www.calculator.net/probability-calculator.html?cal4pa=0.33333&cal4par=8&cal4pb=0.3&cal4pbr=3&calctype=series&x=79&y=18#series

 

 

3 minutes ago, GordonS said:

That's based on the odds of them being drawn together 8 times in a row, not avoiding each other 8 times in a row. It's obviously more likely that two teams won't be drawn together than that they will, and the odds of avoiding each other are 2 in 3. 

Just by eyeballing it, it should be obvious that if something has a 67% chance of happening, then the chances of it happening twice in a row are never going to be as low at 11%.

FWIW, the probabilities are:

Definitely fixed, imhauo. C****

[GordonS]

1 minute ago, Jacksgranda said:

 

Definitely fixed, imhauo. C****

Did Rangers not have some mad run of home draws recently? That was statistically extremely improbable.

[Jacksgranda]

2 minutes ago, GordonS said:

Did Rangers not have some mad run of home draws recently? That was statistically extremely improbable.

[craigkillie]

1 hour ago, LongTimeLurker said:

If Old Firm semi is option 1 and there are options 2 and 3 as well. The first time around you have:

1 (1 in 3 or 33.3333% chance)

2

3

The next time to have it happen twice in a row:

1 1 (1 in 9 or 11.1111% chance. That is 3 to the power 2.

1 2

1 3

2 1

2 2

2 3

3 1

3 2

3 3

The next time to have it happen three times  in a row:

1 1 1 (1 in 27 or 3.7037% chance. That is 1 in 3 to the power 3.

1 1 2

1 1 3

1 2 1

1 2 2

1 2 3

1 3 1

1 3 2

1 3 3

2 1 1

2 1 2

2 1 3

2 2 1

2 2 2

2 2 3

2 3 1

2 3 2

2 3 3

3 1 1

3 1 2

3 1 3

3 2 1

3 2 2

3 2 3

3 3 1

3 3 2

3 3 3

So by 8 times in a row there is a 1 in 6561 (3 to the power 8 ) probability of it happening by chance rather than fraudulently.

If you don't believe me there are websites that explain this sort of stuff in more depth:

https://www.calculator.net/probability-calculator.html?cal4pa=0.33333&cal4par=8&cal4pb=0.3&cal4pbr=3&calctype=series&x=79&y=18#series

 

You've ludicrously overcomplicated this, and as a result got it badly wrong. The odds of them avoiding each other in every draw are 2/3. Therefore the odds of them avoiding each other in 8 consecutive draws are (2/3)^8 = 0.039.