West Juniors

[Glenconner]

Laugh at some of those Senior League fans telling the Juniors the joys of a pyramid system then quickly backing off once payouts get mentioned.

Yeh but no but.

[Glenconner]

5 minutes ago, parsforlife said:

 

So even in this disaster scenario with no SFA payments/prize money in early rounds it turns out you are absolutely no worse off than you were, just you now potentially can get a good cup run (say far enough to be playing Spfl sides) where you can earn significantly more, (fortunes compared to what you have ever earned up until now) your now on a level footing with others when applying for grants and most probably will result in the shake up of the administration that your currently ruled by.

But it's just a change in name... (which doesn't explain why you should even object to it)

 

 

Laughing at the Seniors going all liberal about a pyramid system after they ran a closed shop for about 120 years.

[Glenconner]

Ferranti Thistle got a shout out to join the big boys in the 1970s. They were a works team that played in a public park with zero support.

Highland League teams blanked, Juniors teams blanked.

Still trying to work that one out.

[gwd440]

Having even a small block of Junior clubs moving to the EoS and SoS leagues could severely damage the promotion/relegation mechanism within the pyramid.

If, say 6 Junior teams joined the SoS league next season, with some or even all of them working towards their SFA license, as I understand it, the champions only get put forward for promotion if they are licensed.  Replicate this situation in the East and you could have the situation where the few licensed clubs are being prevented from being promoted by all of these non-licensed junior clubs who 'don't want to get left behind'.

I'm not sure how the pyramid would handle this. I believe at least one team is supposed to be relegated from the Lowland League each season.  Would they offer a place to the highest placed licensed club, or just reprieve the bottom club?

[parsforlife]

Can you actually debate the point rather than scatterbomb the thread with decisions made 50 years ago?

[.Stuart.]

Ferranti Thistle got a shout out to join the big boys in the 1970s. They were a works team that played in a public park with zero support.
Highland League teams blanked, Juniors teams blanked.
Still trying to work that one out.

No one from the juniors applied?

Stop trying so hard, you’re making a c**t of yourself.

[Glenconner]

2 minutes ago, gogsy said:

No junior team applied  Ferranti Thistle might have been a works team when they started but they had been playing in the EOS league for over 20 years before being elected to the Scottish league.

Has somebody told the Seniors if a club goes up then some other club is coming down. In a true pyramid system that might be a long long drop. Some Junior clubs would gain out of going up. But i wouldn't like to see where a Cowdenbeath or Clyde + 20 would end up dropping 3 or 4 leagues.

[Jacksgranda]

7 minutes ago, Glenconner said:

Has somebody told the Seniors if a club goes up then some other club is coming down. In a true pyramid system that might be a long long drop. Some Junior clubs would gain out of going up. But i wouldn't like to see where a Cowdenbeath or Clyde + 20 would end up dropping 3 or 4 leagues.

Why would they drop 3 or 4 leagues?

[Burnie_man]

26 minutes ago, Glenconner said:

Ferranti Thistle got a shout out to join the big boys in the 1970s. They were a works team that played in a public park with zero support.

Highland League teams blanked, Juniors teams blanked.

Still trying to work that one out.

Irvine Meadow XI were offered the place, refused. Still trying to work that one out.

[parsforlife]

Has somebody told the Seniors if a club goes up then some other club is coming down.

Fully aware thanks.


Clyde and more so cowdenbeath have recent experience of dropping through the leagues, there still here tho.

Fwiw they could well drop down a league, but it would be a massive shock if they got relegated further, but if they do that's football, we have been dealing with relegations and promotions for long enough to know that they involve quite a lot of adaptation by the clubs, but also to know that clubs ALWAYS do adapt. Off-field problems aren't caused by relegation, however off-field problems can cause it.

[Glenconner]

St Roch's v Clyde in league game would be a novelty.

[Glenconner]

11 minutes ago, Jacksgranda said:

Why would they drop 3 or 4 leagues?

How many leagues would there be in a true pyramid, young yin?

[Jacksgranda]

As many as you can fill

[Glenconner]

2 minutes ago, Jacksgranda said:

As many as you can fill

We could always invite in a few from the failed state.

If it's good enough for some diddy cup and all that.

[energyzone]

Its not an obscure league - its a senior league that sits above every single Junior league in Scotland.  By next season Dalkeith will be looking in the rear view mirror to see minnows if the Scottish game like St Rochs.
You, Isa and Santheman are just embarrassing yourselves with your stuck in the 1950s attitude and everything was peachy attitude.
**NEWSFLASH** the world has changed, Junior football is dying on its arse. Clubs like Larkhall and St Rochs probably wont be around in a decade unless there is major change and if you are in any way representative of the fanbase of those clubs then its no shock that your clubs will be focussed on winning the Central League Cup whilst the likes of Kelty and Dalkeith can look forward to being in a merit based pyramid, access to the real Scottish Cup every single year, funding and development opportunities available to licenced clubs and indeed they could even play in European football. You support a football club so why on earth would you not want that club to progress as far as it possibly can in the Scottish game?

You seem very angry about all of this.

It's quite simple - different people have different opinions and that's actually allowed.

Some people want to see how far their team could progress up a national league system - and that's fine.

Some people like the derby nature of local or regional leagues without wanting to play further afield on a regular basis and that's also fine.

Some people are apprehensive about losing large visiting crowds from some of the bigger junior sides and crucial revenue as a result - and that's understandable.

Ultimately you logging on and insulting people and clubs that don't share the same opinion as you isn't going to convince anyone.

Unfortunately there appears to be a veil of secrecy about what the SJFA plans to do to progress the junior grade, and that extends to the clubs - only Bo'ness appear so far have said anything at all about applying for the EOS league while I don't believe any West clubs at all have commented on the issue at all, let alone consult with fans. That leads to two conclusions - either they don't fancy it or this forum isn't representative of junior fans at all and it's not even featuring on the radar of any committee.

[Harry's Corner]

My club, Ayr Utd.
You know that payout you were getting? Well it's just been cut by 80% to cater for 160 ex Junior clubs.
hee hee

Ayr Utd big team who think small. Had several chances of progressing to a better standard on and off the pitch but chose to keep the status quo. Kilmarnock FC will always be the dominant force between you pair

[santheman]

1 hour ago, Burnie_man said:

I've seen this mentioned regularly by Isa and now you and a few others, what exactly are you expecting to happen as you sit back and tut and moan from the sidelines?

The SFA are not going to be pro-active in providing the clubs in Glasgow and Ayrshire with what you want (wrongly), the SJFA are not going to be pro-active at coming up with a solution either (wrongly), so what's left is the clubs themselves doing something about it.  BSC for example are offering a way of setting up a new league to facilitate clubs in the west gaining access to the Pyramid and a Licence, are your club going to engage with them in this process when they reveal more detail?

I don't think you, or Isa, or any of the other "die hard" Juniors want change, you'd rather the whole thing went away and you can get back to your own wee world.

We're tutting  and moaning from the sidelines not at the pyramid but at the roasters who constantly resort  to name calling and insulting  those who don't share their views.

At least we agree on something  in that both the SFA and SJFA have been negligent  in the way they have handled  the whole situation.

And you are wrong to say that I am against change. I am quite happy to look at BSC's proposal  as long as it opens the doors to ALL Junior clubs without any barriers and on an equal basis regardless  of how far up or down  the league tables they are or whether they are in a position to apply for a licence or have the resources to become  a Community Club which seems to be the pre requisites to joining at the moment.

[Burnie_man]

23 minutes ago, santheman said:

We're tutting  and moaning from the sidelines not at the pyramid but at the roasters who constantly resort  to name calling and insulting  those who don't share their views.

At least we agree on something  in that both the SFA and SJFA have been negligent  in the way they have handled  the whole situation.

And you are wrong to say that I am against change. I am quite happy to look at BSC's proposal  as long as it opens the doors to ALL Junior clubs without any barriers and on an equal basis regardless  of how far up or down  the league tables they are or whether they are in a position to apply for a licence or have the resources to become  a Community Club which seems to be the pre requisites to joining at the moment.

I don't recall too much name calling, although probably the biggest insult so far was a thread started specifically to be derogatory towards a Junior club who have decided to leave and seek a Licence in another league, a thread which you appeared to like.

As for BSC's proposal, it remains to be seen what it entails although I doubt community club recognition plays any part in it, why would it.   That said, if places are limited then I'd like to think that those clubs who are wanting to gain a Licence and are in the best position to do so would be given preference, only natural. You're not going to start a new league where 90% of members wont or cant be Licenced and therefore ineligible for promotion to the LL.

I wonder what Isa thinks.......

[Hillonearth]

59 minutes ago, energyzone said:

You seem very angry about all of this.

It's quite simple - different people have different opinions and that's actually allowed.

Some people want to see how far their team could progress up a national league system - and that's fine.

Some people like the derby nature of local or regional leagues without wanting to play further afield on a regular basis and that's also fine.

Some people are apprehensive about losing large visiting crowds from some of the bigger junior sides and crucial revenue as a result - and that's understandable.

Ultimately you logging on and insulting people and clubs that don't share the same opinion as you isn't going to convince anyone.

Unfortunately there appears to be a veil of secrecy about what the SJFA plans to do to progress the junior grade, and that extends to the clubs - only Bo'ness appear so far have said anything at all about applying for the EOS league while I don't believe any West clubs at all have commented on the issue at all, let alone consult with fans. That leads to two conclusions - either they don't fancy it or this forum isn't representative of junior fans at all and it's not even featuring on the radar of any committee.

I must admit in large part I don't recognise the picture of the Juniors that's being painted by some of the pyramid-at-all-costs echo chamber on here

Of course there are some teams we could name that struggle for crowds, play in crumbling grounds and are kept going by a few old guys in a less than up to date fashion - in an organisation of 160-odd clubs, wouldn't it be more surprising were there not?

For every one of those though there are several who are playing in front of healthy and enthusiastic crowds, are actively looking to upgrade their surroundings and are being run by people who are by and large more receptive to new ideas and forward-thinking than they're being given credit for.

It has to be said however that no amount of exasperated foot-stomping and caricaturing as a grade of 1950s throwbacks on here is likely to encourage some of those club custodians to commit to something that as things stand in all likelihood would not be in the best interests of their clubs though.

Ultimately, the main issue  - obviously not in the East, but certainly in the West and North - is the current pyramid system not being fit for purpose, with teams reluctant to take a step that could potentially be ruinous to them - Clydebank are a slightly anomalous case in as much as a significant proportion of their fanbase has always hankered after a return to senior football - had a LL existed ten or twelve years ago I suspect that would have been where they attempted to re-enter the game...however at the time they did, the Junior route was the only realistic one open to them.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Burnie_man]

6 minutes ago, Hillonearth said:

I must admit in large part I don't recognise the picture of the Juniors that's being painted by some of the pyramid-at-all-costs echo chamber on here

Of course there are some teams we could name that struggle for crowds, play in crumbling grounds and are kept going by a few old guys in a less than up to date fashion - in an organisation of 160-odd clubs, wouldn't it be more surprising were there not?

For every one of those though there are several who are playing in front of healthy and enthusiastic crowds, are actively looking to upgrade their surroundings and are being run by people who are by and large more receptive to new ideas and forward-thinking than they're being given credit for.

It has to be said however that no amount of exasperated foot-stomping and caricaturing as a grade of 1950s throwbacks on here is likely to encourage some of those club custodians to commit to something that as things stand in all likelihood would not be in the best interests of their clubs though.

Ultimately, the main issue  - obviously not in the East, but certainly in the West and North - is the current pyramid system not being fit for purpose, with teams reluctant to take a step that could potentially be ruinous to them - Clydebank are a slightly anomalous case in as much as a significant proportion of their fanbase has always hankered after a return to senior football - had a LL existed ten or twelve years ago I suspect that would have been where they attempted to re-enter the game...however at the time they did, the Junior route was the only realistic one open to them.

 

 

I'd actually say that there is some top quality debate overall on this subject in here (with some exceptions), together with information sharing, fact checking and frankly, myth busting.  There is plenty of knowledge on here, on both sides.

It would be a bit bizarre if any of that would actually discourage individuals or clubs from the idea of joining the Pyramid.  If it does, then they really weren't up for it in the first place.

One thing is for sure, there is more constructive debate on here than you'll ever hear at an SJFA meeting at national or regional level. That has to be a good thing.