Stay Classy Sinn Fein

[RedRob72]

They cope with similar laws in Wales and Scotland; and Eire for that matter. I was wondering if the DUP thought there would be an advantage in being the only NI voice heard by Westminster after their seemingly foot in mouth decision to campaign for Brexit? And the convenience of not having to talk about the Energy thing, which probably cost far more than the ILA ever would.

I guess there’s an easy counter to that, in Sinn Fein taking up their elected seats at WM?

Without diluting the role of AF in being the Minister responsible for the administration of the Cash for Ash debacle, you are aware that the RHI scheme was approved by the Executive as a whole WB, including its SF representation?

[RedRob72]

Gaelic is an imperialist conquerors language in Dublin, Waterford, Cork, Limerick and Wexford

The meaning of the old Irish word Goidil (Gall-Gaels) is ‘foreign’.
I’m sure Peppino is fully aware of that though and recognises it as an immigrant language gradually introduced to Ireland in the same way that English was.

[invergowrie arab]

3 hours ago, RedRob72 said:

 

The meaning of the old Irish word Goidil (Gall-Gaels) is ‘foreign’.
I’m sure Peppino is fully aware of that though and recognises it as an immigrant language gradually introduced to Ireland in the same way that English was.

 

Buckle in you're going on a bore ride in which I start off answering one point and ending up elsewhere entirely.

I think you confusing two different things.

Goidil comes from Goedilic who were Celts in the British Isles centred in Ireland and Scotland, distinct from the Brythonic Celts of Cornwall, Wales, Cumbria, Strathclyde etc- from which we get Gáidhlig and in English Gaelic.

They are, if you like, the original Gaels. They had settled Ireland and certainly western Mainland Scotland and the southern Hebrides from time immemorial - perhaps around 5000BCE.

The Gall Gaidheal , Gall indeed meaning foreigner, were foreigner Gaels, or more accurately Norse Gaels who came about between the 900s and 1100s when invading Vikings intermarried and formed allegiances with native Gaelic kingdoms.

Before the Gall Gael the Vikings had established trading ports and major rivers in Ireland Dublin, Waterford, Wexford, Limerick and Cork which would originally have been purely Norse for at least 200 years before being conquered by the Gaelic Irish Diarmaid of Leinster in the mid 11th century.

Going back to Gall Gaels the name Galloway, or in Gaelic, Gall-Gaidheallaibh was a place where these Norse Gaels were prevalent. The Gaelic name for the outer Hebrides is Innse Gall islands of the foreigners - as it was also ruled by Norse Gael families. MacLeod, MacDonald, MacAulay etc are all Norse Gael names.

It's an interesting question to ponder. When was Ireland? When was Scotland?

There was never a unified unitary Ireland. There were a collection of Gaelic and Norse Gaelic kingdoms and high Kings for centuries. Diarmaid probably got closest to controlling the whole island but after him the Normans came soon after and then you get the "800 years" of all that came after that. The history Ireland is one of invasion, assimilation, imperialism and partition.

It was into the 16th century before Scottish Kings could claim they were in control of what we now think of as Scotland after the Norse Gael lordship of the Isles came to an end. So Scotland as whole and independent only really existed for about 100 years before the union of the crowns and 200 years before the act of union.

It's actually a bit of a wonder that that version of Scottishness is the one that endures, even amongst unionists.

I certainly know people who see themselves as Gaels first but none who would say they weren't Scottish.

[RedRob72]

Buckle in you're going on a bore ride in which I start off answering one point and ending up elsewhere entirely.
I think you confusing two different things.
Goidil comes from Goedilic who were Celts in the British Isles centred in Ireland and Scotland, distinct from the Brythonic Celts of Cornwall, Wales, Cumbria, Strathclyde etc- from which we get Gáidhlig and in English Gaelic.
They are, if you like, the original Gaels. They had settled Ireland and certainly western Mainland Scotland and the southern Hebrides from time immemorial - perhaps around 5000BCE.
The Gall Gaidheal , Gall indeed meaning foreigner, were foreigner Gaels, or more accurately Norse Gaels who came about between the 900s and 1100s when invading Vikings intermarried and formed allegiances with native Gaelic kingdoms.
Before the Gall Gael the Vikings had established trading ports and major rivers in Ireland Dublin, Waterford, Wexford, Limerick and Cork which would originally have been purely Norse for at least 200 years before being conquered by the Gaelic Irish Diarmaid of Leinster in the mid 11th century.
Going back to Gall Gaels the name Galloway, or in Gaelic, Gall-Gaidheallaibh was a place where these Norse Gaels were prevalent. The Gaelic name for the outer Hebrides is Innse Gall islands of the foreigners - as it was also ruled by Norse Gael families. MacLeod, MacDonald, MacAulay etc are all Norse Gael names.
It's an interesting question to ponder. When was Ireland? When was Scotland?
There was never a unified unitary Ireland. There were a collection of Gaelic and Norse Gaelic kingdoms and high Kings for centuries. Diarmaid probably got closest to controlling the whole island but after him the Normans came soon after and then you get the "800 years" of all that came after that. The history Ireland is one of invasion, assimilation, imperialism and partition.
It was into the 16th century before Scottish Kings could claim they were in control of what we now think of as Scotland after the Norse Gael lordship of the Isles came to an end. So Scotland as whole and independent only really existed for about 100 years before the union of the crowns and 200 years before the act of union.
It's actually a bit of a wonder that that version of Scottishness is the one that endures, even amongst unionists.
I certainly know people who see themselves as Gaels first but none who would say they weren't Scottish.

Interesting stuff, no harm in a short educational diversion eh![emoji6]
Believe I came across it (Gall ~ Foreign) in RF Foster’s ‘Modern Ireland’, it is some years ago however.

[welshbairn]

3 hours ago, RedRob72 said:

I guess there’s an easy counter to that, in Sinn Fein taking up their elected seats at WM?

Without diluting the role of AF in being the Minister responsible for the administration of the Cash for Ash debacle, you are aware that the RHI scheme was approved by the Executive as a whole WB, including its SF representation?

My point was that while the DUP control the balance of power in Westminster and are in cahoots with the Government it's convenient for them to have Stormont closed, and not raising embarrassing questions about what Brexit will do for their constituents, and AF's role in Cash for Ash.

P.S. If Sinn Fein had changed their policy and taken their seats there would probably have had to be another election, in which I think Labour would have had a decent chance of winning.

[RedRob72]

My point was that while the DUP control the balance of power in Westminster and are in cahoots with the Government it's convenient for them to have Stormont closed, and not raising embarrassing questions about what Brexit will do for their constituents, and AF's role in Cash for Ash.
P.S. If Sinn Fein had changed their policy and taken their seats there would probably have had to be another election, in which I think Labour would have had a decent chance of winning.

Think you’re probably right on that count. I’m just surprised they haven’t found some way of engineering it, given the potential impact it would have.
Cash for Ash Questions aside (whilst subject to an ongoing enquiry) it wouldn’t seem that the stalling of the Assembly at Stormont has stopped the whole Brexit saga from raging over the water as to what the future will bring with regards to the border?
The argument with the DUP is still taken up by opposing MP’s at WM.

[bob the tank]

1 hour ago, welshbairn said:

 

P.S. If Sinn Fein had changed their policy and taken their seats there would probably have had to be another election, in which I think Labour would have had a decent chance of winning.

I am willing to say that there will never be another labour government in my lifetime.

[Peppino Impastato]

6 hours ago, RedRob72 said:

I guess there’s an easy counter to that, in Sinn Fein taking up their elected seats at WM?

Without diluting the role of AF in being the Minister responsible for the administration of the Cash for Ash debacle, you are aware that the RHI scheme was approved by the Executive as a whole WB, including its SF representation?

I don't give a shit Wes I'm not hung up on these things the way you are, I just thought it was hilarious how raging you were when it was pointed out.  And English was introduced through colonialism and violence wasn't it Wes.  In Scotland too.

[NotThePars]

I am willing to say that there will never be another labour government in my lifetime.

In Scotland, aye. The polling broadly suggests that there’s just as much chance of a Labour government at Westminster as there is of Scotland winning its independence at the next attempt.

[RedRob72]

I don't give a shit Wes I'm not hung up on these things the way you are, I just thought it was hilarious how raging you were when it was pointed out.  And English was introduced through colonialism and violence wasn't it Wes.  In Scotland too.

Perhaps not the most beautiful language but it’s global coverage is pretty impressive though eh Pep. Remarkable for such a small group of Islands. The reach of Spanish too!

[Peppino Impastato]

Just now, RedRob72 said:

Perhaps not the most beautiful language but it’s global coverage is pretty impressive though eh Pep. Remarkable for such a small group of Islands. The reach of Spanish too!

That's colonialism for you Wes.  Kill a few tens of millions, steal the wealth of half the world it leaves a legacy.

[RedRob72]

That's colonialism for you Wes.  Kill a few tens of millions, steal the wealth of half the world it leaves a legacy.

If only we could turn back the clock eh?

[Peppino Impastato]

11 minutes ago, RedRob72 said:

If only we could turn back the clock eh?

Well you live in the 17th century anyway so no need in your case

[madwullie]

1 hour ago, Peppino Impastato said:

I don't give a shit Wes I'm not hung up on these things the way you are, I just thought it was hilarious how raging you were when it was pointed out.  And English was introduced through colonialism and violence wasn't it Wes.  In Scotland too.

Not really in Scotland no

[williemillersmoustache]

Direct rule it is then.

Sure that'll be fine, sure, like so.

[invergowrie arab]

20 minutes ago, madwullie said:

Not really in Scotland no

It probably was to begin with via the Bernician/Northumbrian's but they were only displacing the Brythonic speaking Goddodin.

[madwullie]

I was under the impression it was more a lingua franca situation with borrowings going both ways

[invergowrie arab]

7 minutes ago, madwullie said:

I was under the impression it was more a lingua franca situation with borrowings going both ways

Pretty much.

The Bernicians first kicked off "English" in "Scotland" around 500 AD.

Since then it has been indigneous to the Lothians and Roxburghshire.

For the next 1000 years Scotland would be home to a variety of kingdoms and languages including variants of Norse, Gaelic, Brythonic and English. During that time at different points Pictish, Gaelic, Latin, Norman French and English/Scots would all have been a lingua franca for different times and classes.

If we fast forward to 15/16 century you could probably reasonably say Scots dominated south of the Antonine wall and Gaelic north. The exceptions to this were Galloway and south Ayrshire which remained Gaelic speaking for a long time and the Angus, aberdeenshire, moray coast which was Scots speaking.

As trade grew in burghs Scots did indeed naturally become the lingua franca. Until we get a settled pre Highland  clearance linguistic stabilisation of Highland and Lowland. Basically wherever there was mountains was Gaelic and anywhere south of the Moray firth with fertile plains or ports was Scots.

 

It's getting off topic now so just to say SF are class.

 

[RedRob72]

Direct rule it is then.
Sure that'll be fine, sure, like so.

Pay cuts to follow?

[NotThePars]

Were the early “Britons” around Ayrshire and the Rock not eventually driven out to Wales? It’s been years since I read about it.