Scotland Centre Backs

[HalfCutNinja]

4 minutes ago, G51 said:

Players don't recover from Achilles injuries very well. You lose some of your explosiveness.

You can come back from serious knee injuries now and hit your previous peaks, but the medical industry still hasn't really figured out how to properly fix an Achilles tear.

That's not really true. Beckham famously did it, came back, as did Koscielny, more recently Hudson-Odoi.

They can fix pretty much everything these days, it just takes time. Souttar was unlucky for it to reoccur, but he'll play for Scotland again, he did quite well when he played for us before and is still quite young.

[G51]

3 minutes ago, HalfCutNinja said:

That's not really true. Beckham famously did it, came back, as did Koscielny, more recently Hudson-Odoi.

They can fix pretty much everything these days, it just takes time. Souttar was unlucky for it to reoccur, but he'll play for Scotland again, he did quite well when he played for us before and is still quite young.

Beckham came back and fucked about in America and France for the rest of his career. Before that he was still playing for Milan and England. Koscielny's career also nosedived, which wasn't helped by him being about 33 when it happened. We'll see what happens for Hudson-Odoi, since his recovery is relatively recent.

[HalfCutNinja]

2 minutes ago, G51 said:

Beckham came back and fucked about in America and France for the rest of his career. Before that he was still playing for Milan and England. Koscielny's career also nosedived, which wasn't helped by him being about 33 when it happened. We'll see what happens for Hudson-Odoi, since his recovery is relatively recent.

Hudson-Odoi hasn't lost his explosiveness though has he?

Plus Souttar didn't have much to start with, he's mobile but not quick. He needs time but its likely he'll be fine, playing every week in the top flight this time next year and probably back in the Scotland squad.

As I said, just now I think him and Jamie Hamilton look like the two best options at RCB in the near future. 

[craigkillie]

1 hour ago, HalfCutNinja said:

They signed Koch and LLorente last summer. Do you really think they signed two international CB's the summer they got promoted cause they saw Cooper as first choice?

They were supposed to be first choice with Cooper as back-up.

Of course the defensive record is relevant, how else would you judge defenders?

Cooper is a decent player, and a good option for us at CB or LCB, but he isn't markedly better than any of our other options which his career proves. 

 

Edited to add

Check this out for conclusive proof of their intentions. Leeds Utd salaries for this season.  

https://www.spotrac.com/epl/leeds-united-fc/payroll/

Robert Koch - £2.4m, 2nd highest paid player at the club

Diego LLorente - £1.44m, 7th highest paid player at the club

Liam Cooper - £344k, 20th highest paid player at the club

 

Anyone still want to argue they see Liam Cooper as first choice?

Cooper is also an international centre-back, and a bunch of made up salaries doesn't count for much, especially since he hasn't signed a new contract since they got promoted.

[G51]

Just now, HalfCutNinja said:

Hudson-Odoi hasn't lost his explosiveness though has he?

Plus Souttar didn't have much to start with, he's mobile but not quick. He needs time but its likely he'll be fine, playing every week in the top flight this time next year and probably back in the Scotland squad.

As I said, just now I think him and Jamie Hamilton look like the two best options at RCB in the near future. 

I don't have his measurables, but Hudson-Odoi said himself he doesn't feel like he's the same player: https://www.goal.com/en-ie/news/chelsea-winger-hudson-odoi-admits-hes-not-yet-at-full/7cw20iyglhw916tq21mdutvll

Explosiveness isn't just about short-yardage sprints. It's also about your ability to jump for headers, your ability to knock someone off the ball, your ability to flip your hips quickly.

Right now, we should shut down the John Souttar for Scotland talk until we figure out what he is post-injury.

[cameron2000]

They signed Koch and LLorente last summer. Do you really think they signed two international CB's the summer they got promoted cause they saw Cooper as first choice?
They were supposed to be first choice with Cooper as back-up.
Of course the defensive record is relevant, how else would you judge defenders?
Cooper is a decent player, and a good option for us at CB or LCB, but he isn't markedly better than any of our other options which his career proves. 
 
Edited to add
Check this out for conclusive proof of their intentions. Leeds Utd salaries for this season.  
https://www.spotrac.com/epl/leeds-united-fc/payroll/
Robert Koch - £2.4m, 2nd highest paid player at the club
Diego LLorente - £1.44m, 7th highest paid player at the club
Liam Cooper - £344k, 20th highest paid player at the club
 
Anyone still want to argue they see Liam Cooper as first choice?

I certainly wouldn’t judge a defender on goals conceded. Tackle win %, Ariel duel success %, pass completion % are all much better indications.

At least we can surely agree Cooper and Hanley are miles better than any Scottish CB in the Scottish Prem - which upsets the Aberdeen and St Johnstone fans greatly to know their squads aren’t full of champions league standard players.

[HalfCutNinja]

30 minutes ago, craigkillie said:

Cooper is also an international centre-back, and a bunch of made up salaries doesn't count for much, especially since he hasn't signed a new contract since they got promoted.

For a vastly inferior international side. Players who play for Namibia are also internationals. 

In professional football money is everything. Do you really think Leeds went and spent big on a new CB pairing as soon as they got promoted cause they thought Cooper was first choice?  Its a ridiculous suggestion.

30 minutes ago, G51 said:

I don't have his measurables, but Hudson-Odoi said himself he doesn't feel like he's the same player: https://www.goal.com/en-ie/news/chelsea-winger-hudson-odoi-admits-hes-not-yet-at-full/7cw20iyglhw916tq21mdutvll

Explosiveness isn't just about short-yardage sprints. It's also about your ability to jump for headers, your ability to knock someone off the ball, your ability to flip your hips quickly.

Right now, we should shut down the John Souttar for Scotland talk until we figure out what he is post-injury.

Did you read the article?  He says its because he lost a lot of muscle in his calf, as you can't exercise it. Nothing to do with the achilles itself, which typically takes two years to fully get over. 

82% of players with a ruptured achilles are playing at the same level after two years https://bjsm.bmj.com/content/54/8/480

[G51]

2 minutes ago, HalfCutNinja said:

For a vastly inferior international side. Players who play for Namibia are also internationals. 

In professional football money is everything. Do you really think Leeds went and spent big on a new CB pairing as soon as they got promoted cause they thought Cooper was first choice?  Its a ridiculous suggestion.

Did you read the article?  He says its because he lost a lot of muscle in his calf, as you can't exercise it. Nothing to do with the achilles itself, which typically takes two years to fully get over. 

82% of players with a ruptured achilles are playing at the same level after two years https://bjsm.bmj.com/content/54/8/480

Yes, I read the article. That an Achilles tear comes with additional complications is one of the reasons why it's so difficult to recover from.

Your study doesn't prove that players recover from an Achilles to be the same player. The objective:

"Objective To evaluate the time to return to playing following acute Achilles tendon rupture (ATR) and surgical repair in professional male football (soccer) players."

There's no measure of performance in that, it simply defines success as "getting a game in the same division as before post-surgery". That doesn't mean you haven't lost explosiveness.

The Americans are miles ahead of us on studying the effects of an Achilles injury, because they see a lot more of them. It is associated with a significant decline in performance: https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/abs/10.1177/0363546513490659

[Marshmallo]

I'm not sure what Liam Cooper could have done to become a German or Spanish international other than having his maw fly to Madrid or Stuttgart to give birth to him.

[The Moonster]

Fucking Namibia

Gonnae just take the banning and stay away, Pep? 

[Bing.McCrosby]

Just now, Marshmallo said:

I'm not sure what Liam Cooper could have done to become a German or Spanish international other than having his maw fly to Madrid or Stuttgart to give birth to him.

So if he was German or Spanish you think he would be playing for their international teams.

Interesting.

[craigkillie]

1 hour ago, cameron2000 said:

At least we can surely agree Cooper and Hanley are miles better than any Scottish CB in the Scottish Prem - which upsets the Aberdeen and St Johnstone fans greatly to know their squads aren’t full of champions league standard players.

 

And yet our starting XI that qualified us for our first major tournament in over two decades had 5 Scottish Premiership players compared to just 2 from the mighty Championship.

[Marshmallo]

1 minute ago, BingMcCrosby said:

So if he was German or Spanish you think he would be playing for their international teams.

Interesting.

Where did I say anything like that?

[gannonball]

55 minutes ago, The Moonster said:

Fucking Namibia

Gonnae just take the banning and stay away, Pep? 

What did he get banned for eventually last time, other than being a permanent seething mess?

Edited March 15, 2021 by gannonball

[The Moonster]

Just now, gannonball said:

What did he get banned for last time other than being a permanent seething mess?

I'm not sure what exactly it was for but aye, emptied after an outburst in the General Nonsense forum.

[HalfCutNinja]

6 hours ago, G51 said:

Yes, I read the article. That an Achilles tear comes with additional complications is one of the reasons why it's so difficult to recover from.

Your study doesn't prove that players recover from an Achilles to be the same player. The objective:

"Objective To evaluate the time to return to playing following acute Achilles tendon rupture (ATR) and surgical repair in professional male football (soccer) players."

There's no measure of performance in that, it simply defines success as "getting a game in the same division as before post-surgery". That doesn't mean you haven't lost explosiveness.

The Americans are miles ahead of us on studying the effects of an Achilles injury, because they see a lot more of them. It is associated with a significant decline in performance: https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/abs/10.1177/0363546513490659

In a sprinter or something like that where tiny margins make a big difference it could have an effect.

But a central defender in football won't be hugely affected. Souttar was already back to his best after the first time it happened.

I'm fairly confident he'll be fine given time, and he's young enough to have plenty of time. Would expect to see him putting in solid performances week in week out in the top flight next season, and if so he'll be back in the national squad sooner or later.

[G51]

3 minutes ago, HalfCutNinja said:

In a sprinter or something like that where tiny margins make a big difference it could have an effect.

But a central defender in football won't be hugely affected. Souttar was already back to his best after the first time it happened.

I'm fairly confident he'll be fine given time, and he's young enough to have plenty of time. Would expect to see him putting in solid performances week in week out in the top flight next season, and if so he'll be back in the national squad sooner or later.

I’m fairly confident he’ll never play another minute for Scotland tbh. We’ll see.

[0Neils40yarder]

10 hours ago, woof! said:

Hanley played in a weaker team. 

Nae point disproving him, he cannae see the wood for the trees

[ewan14]

7 hours ago, BingMcCrosby said:

So if he was German or Spanish you think he would be playing for their international teams.

Interesting.

 Populations , populations !

[Jamie_B]

50 minutes ago, HalfCutNinja said:

 

But a central defender in football won't be hugely affected. Souttar was already back to his best after the first time it happened.

I'm fairly confident he'll be fine given time, and he's young enough to have plenty of time. Would expect to see him putting in solid performances week in week out in the top flight next season.

These are both highly, highly questionable assertions. The first one in particular - he played six league games between coming back from ankle surgery and the first Achilles injury. In those six games Hearts conceded 14 goals. The game I saw in full - at home to St Johnstone - he and the rest of the Hearts defence were an absolute catastrophe from start to finish. If you’re looking at the period between that ankle injury and his previous long term injury he was a stalwart in a Hearts team that was utter, utter shit and that only managed four wins between the winter break and the end of the season.