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Hanley should definitely be in the squad.
John Souttar shouldn’t even be talked about until he has a sustained period of good form in - at the very least - the top flight in Scotland. He’s only played about 30 games in the last three seasons. He’s missed this entire season through injury as well as the majority of last season, and when he did play before that it was in the worst defence in the Premiership by a mile. And it was hardly like he was a stand out who was single handedly keeping them in games when he did play. He’s 24 and since the start of the 2019/20 season has had three separate long term injuries that have kept him out for a minimum of four months, including two separate Achilles’ tendon ruptures. Whether he ever comes back to any sort of decent level is very much open to question.

And he was shite when he did play for Scotland, albeit with a bad team around him and a terrible manager.
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1 minute ago, craigkillie said:


And he was shite when he did play for Scotland, albeit with a bad team around him and a terrible manager.

You have to feel sorry for the guy because he obviously had buckets of potential and has had the worst possible time with injuries. But equally he’s still hyped up massively on the basis of his reputation as a raw 16-year-old at Dundee United. During which time he was repeatedly bodied by Stevie May, which may well bias my view on him!

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1 hour ago, 0Neils40yarder said:

When discussing two players I always look at it this way;

!. Would Hanley start every week for Motherwell? Aye undoubtedly...

 

2. Would Gallagher start every week for Norwich? Highly unfuckinglikely

 

3. Hanley is a far superior player to Gallagher, it's that simple.

1. indeed, he would

2. simply because you don't rate him. 

3. simple in your mind. 

There seems to be a trend that some folks need to see a player sign for a team they consider a "top" team before conceding he is good enough. Without that yardstick some folks can't seem to spot a decent player. 

 

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3 hours ago, HalfCutNinja said:


I looked at Cooper last night, he played two games in the top flight for Hull, and has fourteen so far this season. So in his career he has sixteen games in the top flight. Its not that impressive, given he turns 30 this year.

Would that be the Liam Cooper who has made 21 appearances for Leeds in the EPL this season? Hint - don’t just ‘look at Cooper’ on the player’s Wikipedia page. Try a more authoritative source, such as PremierLeague.com, or even take the radical approach of watching the games.

Cooper’s appearances this season

Edited by Frankie S
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6 hours ago, RandomGuy. said:

My head literally exploded reading about Souttar, Porteous, Hendry and then seeing fucking WhoScored ratings being used to tout the fucking cart horse Hanley.

Absolutely mad. You've got a crock who isn't even a good CB, then two rash, immature, weak CBs who constantly give away daft fouls. Hanley we already know struggles.

Hanley is the captain of the side pishing the Championship. Decent chance he'll be a starter in the Barclays next year. Reports on his performances have been very good this year.

I agree completely with you re Porteous, and even more so on Hendry and Souttar, who are miles off the level required.

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1 hour ago, KingRocketman II said:

1. indeed, he would

2. simply because you don't rate him. 

3. simple in your mind. 

There seems to be a trend that some folks need to see a player sign for a team they consider a "top" team before conceding he is good enough. Without that yardstick some folks can't seem to spot a decent player. 

 

As a Motherwell fan, I do rate Gallagher but I know he isnt a top level English Championship player

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13 minutes ago, 0Neils40yarder said:

As a Motherwell fan, I do rate Gallagher but I know he isnt a top level English Championship player

I think we are getting into quite surreal realms when we largely agree that a player is extremely comfortable defending against the likes of Serbia, Czech Republic and Slovakia but at the same time wouldn't hack it at the "top level of the English Championship" or "he is decent but he ain't no Grant Hanley". On that I will bow out of this little debate. 

 

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4 hours ago, Frankie S said:

Would that be the Liam Cooper who has made 21 appearances for Leeds in the EPL this season? Hint - don’t just ‘look at Cooper’ on the player’s Wikipedia page. Try a more authoritative source, such as PremierLeague.com, or even take the radical approach of watching the games.

Cooper’s appearances this season

Wow that changes everything. So half a season, for a team that concedes bucketloads, whilst their two first choice CB's have been injured the entire time. 

Hanley has about three seasons like that.

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1 hour ago, HalfCutNinja said:

Wow that changes everything. So half a season, for a team that concedes bucketloads, whilst their two first choice CB's have been injured the entire time. 

Hanley has about three seasons like that.

If you want to use stats to support your argument, then at least get the stats right. 21 appearances from 28 games, so he looks like a fairly regular fixture in the side to me.

FWIW, Cooper has also missed games due to injury this season, and was missing from the squad yesterday, presumably due to an injury or sickness. He’s clearly been first choice when he’s been available.

If he’s third choice centre back and Championship standard as you claim, he’s done alright to have been club captain this term in the EPL then.

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4 hours ago, Louis Litt said:

John Souttar is a lost cause, I wouldn't give him a contract at Dundee never mind have him in contention for Scotland. 

This. 

He was never a good CB prospect to begin with and I've zero idea why anyone ever thought he would be.

Hes a positionless crock in his mid-20s whos in the Scottish second tier. Absolutely fucking wild folk want him in the Scotland squad for the Euros.

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23 minutes ago, Frankie S said:

If you want to use stats to support your argument, then at least get the stats right. 21 appearances from 28 games, so he looks like a fairly regular fixture in the side to me.

FWIW, Cooper has also missed games due to injury this season, and was missing from the squad yesterday, presumably due to an injury or sickness. He’s clearly been first choice when he’s been available.

If he’s third choice centre back and Championship standard as you claim, he’s done alright to have been club captain this term in the EPL then.

They have a German international Robert Koch and Spanish international Diego LLorente. Both CB's. 

They are the first choice pairing they intended for this season. Both have been injured all season until just recently. When fully fit Cooper will be on the bench.

This is because he's a Championship level player. That's why 85% of his career has been in the Championship, with 10% split between League One and League Two, and 5% in the Premiership.

Leeds have one of the worst defences in the Premiership this season, having conceded 46 in 28 games, the fifth worst in the division.

So you have a guy who has played half a season in the Premiership, whilst filling in for his team's first choice, in his entire career, approaching 30 years old. Whilst his team have been shipping goals left, right and centre.

Its hardly an endorsement of him as a Premiership level player therefore clearly a first choice for Scotland. He is the same level player as Hanley, McKenna etc. No different. Definitely in the squad, debatable if he's in the team.

Hanley btw is one month younger than Cooper, have spent four seasons in the Premiership, and played 46 games. He has also never played at a level lower than the Championship. Cooper has played one season in League Two and three seasons in League One.

Cooper has 312 career games, with 5 caps.

Hanley has 313 career games, with 29 caps. 

Hanley's team are currently ten points clear at the top of the Championship and he is ranked the number one CB in the league this season. 

 

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42 minutes ago, HalfCutNinja said:

They have a German international Robert Koch and Spanish international Diego LLorente. Both CB's. 

They are the first choice pairing they intended for this season. Both have been injured all season until just recently. When fully fit Cooper will be on the bench.

This is because he's a Championship level player. That's why 85% of his career has been in the Championship, with 10% split between League One and League Two, and 5% in the Premiership.

Leeds have one of the worst defences in the Premiership this season, having conceded 46 in 28 games, the fifth worst in the division.

So you have a guy who has played half a season in the Premiership, whilst filling in for his team's first choice, in his entire career, approaching 30 years old. Whilst his team have been shipping goals left, right and centre.

Its hardly an endorsement of him as a Premiership level player therefore clearly a first choice for Scotland. He is the same level player as Hanley, McKenna etc. No different. Definitely in the squad, debatable if he's in the team.

Hanley btw is one month younger than Cooper, have spent four seasons in the Premiership, and played 46 games. He has also never played at a level lower than the Championship. Cooper has played one season in League Two and three seasons in League One.

Cooper has 312 career games, with 5 caps.

Hanley has 313 career games, with 29 caps. 

Hanley's team are currently ten points clear at the top of the Championship and he is ranked the number one CB in the league this season. 

 

FWIW, I’d have Hanley in the squad too. Hanley’s form this season merits a place.

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They have a German international Robert Koch and Spanish international Diego LLorente. Both CB's. 
They are the first choice pairing they intended for this season. Both have been injured all season until just recently. When fully fit Cooper will be on the bench.
This is because he's a Championship level player. That's why 85% of his career has been in the Championship, with 10% split between League One and League Two, and 5% in the Premiership.
Leeds have one of the worst defences in the Premiership this season, having conceded 46 in 28 games, the fifth worst in the division.
So you have a guy who has played half a season in the Premiership, whilst filling in for his team's first choice, in his entire career, approaching 30 years old. Whilst his team have been shipping goals left, right and centre.
Its hardly an endorsement of him as a Premiership level player therefore clearly a first choice for Scotland. He is the same level player as Hanley, McKenna etc. No different. Definitely in the squad, debatable if he's in the team.
Hanley btw is one month younger than Cooper, have spent four seasons in the Premiership, and played 46 games. He has also never played at a level lower than the Championship. Cooper has played one season in League Two and three seasons in League One.
Cooper has 312 career games, with 5 caps.
Hanley has 313 career games, with 29 caps. 
Hanley's team are currently ten points clear at the top of the Championship and he is ranked the number one CB in the league this season. 
 

You don’t know that for a fact. In fact I would suspect (not 100% certain) that Bielsa wanted Cooper and Llorente as his first choice pairing with Koch as backup.

Remember how good Leeds defensive record was in the championship also... I’ve spent a lot of time on here defending Hanley who I think has dramatically improved but this time next year he could be part of a team that’s shipped even more goals than Leeds.

Fwiw I don’t think the defensive record is particularly relevant - they clearly play so expansive that any centre back in the planet will be exposed. It’s good to watch but honestly stick Van Dijk or Dias in there and they’ll still be leaky imo as the overall quality of the team isn’t necessarily capable of being so dominant at the moment.
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On 13/03/2021 at 22:37, KingRocketman II said:

by simply looking at their performances for Scotland. Gallagher has been assured and confident across his 7 games whereas Hanley for many of his 29 odd games has been shakey and error prone. 

so in answer to your question - the world of international football. 

Hanley played in a weaker team. 

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1 hour ago, cameron2000 said:


You don’t know that for a fact. In fact I would suspect (not 100% certain) that Bielsa wanted Cooper and Llorente as his first choice pairing with Koch as backup.

Remember how good Leeds defensive record was in the championship also... I’ve spent a lot of time on here defending Hanley who I think has dramatically improved but this time next year he could be part of a team that’s shipped even more goals than Leeds.

Fwiw I don’t think the defensive record is particularly relevant - they clearly play so expansive that any centre back in the planet will be exposed. It’s good to watch but honestly stick Van Dijk or Dias in there and they’ll still be leaky imo as the overall quality of the team isn’t necessarily capable of being so dominant at the moment.

They signed Koch and LLorente last summer. Do you really think they signed two international CB's the summer they got promoted cause they saw Cooper as first choice?

They were supposed to be first choice with Cooper as back-up.

Of course the defensive record is relevant, how else would you judge defenders?

Cooper is a decent player, and a good option for us at CB or LCB, but he isn't markedly better than any of our other options which his career proves. 

 

Edited to add

Check this out for conclusive proof of their intentions. Leeds Utd salaries for this season.  

https://www.spotrac.com/epl/leeds-united-fc/payroll/

Robert Koch - £2.4m, 2nd highest paid player at the club

Diego LLorente - £1.44m, 7th highest paid player at the club

Liam Cooper - £344k, 20th highest paid player at the club

 

Anyone still want to argue they see Liam Cooper as first choice?

Edited by HalfCutNinja
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We don't play anything close to the same style as Leeds so I'm not sure looking at the overall amount of goals they concede is too relevant. 

They concede shedloads getting caught on the counter.

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Players don't recover from Achilles injuries very well. You lose some of your explosiveness.

You can come back from serious knee injuries now and hit your previous peaks, but the medical industry still hasn't really figured out how to properly fix an Achilles tear.

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