Kelty Hearts & the EOS League

[Auld Heid]

On the much vaunted myth regarding players at the cost of facilities, here’s some improvements in the old East Region off the top of my head over the last 20 years, by clubs who have not benefited from Scottish Cup cash (apart from one game for Bathgate). Might be more I’ve missed;
Blackburn Utd: New ground, lights, 3G
Dunbar Utd: New ground, lights
Newtongrange: New ground, lights
West Calder Utd: New ground
Broxburn Ath: Ground rebuilt, lights, 3G
Tranent: New pavilion, pitch, other improvements
Musselburgh Athletic: Extensive renovations
Sauchie: New Stand, lights
Easthouses: New stand, lights
Bathgate Thistle: New enclosure, already had lights
Pumpherston: Renovated enclosure
Fauldhouse: Improvements to enclosure, pitchside barrier renewed
Dalkeith: Lights, new enclosure and pavilion
Haddington: New pitchside barrier, new pavilion
Penicuik Athletic: New lights
Whitburn: Seated stand
I’m sure someone can come up with a similar list in the West Region.
In times gone by a lot of money has been wasted on players whilst playing in decrepit holes, that changed a while back. Each one of the grounds mentioned above is perfectly adequate for LL football .

All these clubs with lights yet hardly a competitive played under them.

[Che Dail]

6 hours ago, Burnie_man said:

On the much vaunted myth regarding players at the cost of facilities, here’s some improvements in the old East Region off the top of my head over the last 20 years, by clubs who have not benefited from Scottish Cup cash (apart from one game for Bathgate). Might be more I’ve missed;

Blackburn Utd: New ground, lights, 3G

Dunbar Utd: New ground, lights

Newtongrange: New ground, lights

West Calder Utd: New ground

Broxburn Ath: Ground rebuilt, lights, 3G

Tranent: New pavilion, pitch, other improvements

Musselburgh Athletic: Extensive renovations

Sauchie: New Stand, lights

Easthouses: New stand, lights

Bathgate Thistle: New enclosure, already had lights

Pumpherston: Renovated enclosure

Fauldhouse: Improvements to enclosure, pitchside barrier renewed

Dalkeith: Lights, new enclosure and pavilion

Haddington: New pitchside barrier, new pavilion

Penicuik Athletic: New lights

Whitburn: Seated stand

I’m sure someone can come up with a similar list in the West Region.

In times gone by a lot of money has been wasted on players whilst playing in decrepit holes, that changed a while back. Each one of the grounds mentioned above is perfectly adequate for LL football .

Going back to earlier posts, a main argument for not going EoS to LL was for fear of clubs 'bankrupting themselves' to make the necessary upgrades - figures anywhere from £50-£100k being banded about - that's why I for one was saying that if that's the case they should work on that instead of shelling out on players... 

But I think you are spot on with the list above, and there are probably more to add, so I'll stand corrected.  And I think that if you add all those teams to the Existing EoS you've got a pretty decent set-up even without Linlithgow, Bo'ness and Bonnyrigg.  All the clubs would get their SFA members payment and have a crack at the Scottish Cup every year.   

Newtongrange v Penicuik / Musselburgh / Haddington / Tranent / Dalkeith / Easthouses / Dunbar.  Decent local games  - they could afford to drop the 'big three'.  Not sure how it would affect the West Lothian clubs but the potential to progress up the leagues and to advance in the Scottish Cup would be there every year for them too.  

How many of those clubs would actually lose out financially by switching to EoS next season? Should do it.

[Jambo'ness]

Taking a step back and reviewing all the comments, I can see both sides.

Those clubs who have spent money wish to protect their interests and don't want clubs getting into the framework without undergoing the compliance they had to.

Then, on the other side, there are a bunch of clubs who have not really been given much encouragement to proceed.  It's all well and good saying the LL was open to all at its inception but nobody knew if it would just crash and burn and then where were clubs left?

To avoid us all fighting amongst ourselves, the SFA should be taking a real hold on it and driving the 'pyramid idea' forwards.  Instead, they drag their feet, hoping clubs will take the initiative.  If the SFA are serious, they need to be at the forefront.  Not just laying down rules but actively working with clubs to progress.

[Auld Heid]

8 hours ago, Che Dail said:

Going back to earlier posts, a main argument for not going EoS to LL was for fear of clubs 'bankrupting themselves' to make the necessary upgrades - figures anywhere from £50-£100k being banded about - that's why I for one was saying that if that's the case they should work on that instead of shelling out on players... 

But I think you are spot on with the list above, and there are probably more to add, so I'll stand corrected.  And I think that if you add all those teams to the Existing EoS you've got a pretty decent set-up even without Linlithgow, Bo'ness and Bonnyrigg.  All the clubs would get their SFA members payment and have a crack at the Scottish Cup every year.   

Newtongrange v Penicuik / Musselburgh / Haddington / Tranent / Dalkeith / Easthouses / Dunbar.  Decent local games  - they could afford to drop the 'big three'.  Not sure how it would affect the West Lothian clubs but the potential to progress up the leagues and to advance in the Scottish Cup would be there every year for them too.  

How many of those clubs would actually lose out financially by switching to EoS next season? Should do it.

Turning your post around - how many EoS clubs would benefit more from dropping down to the Juniors?

Or is this just about the financial benefits for some teams and not the football.

[non_sequitur]

Turning your post around - how many EoS clubs would benefit more from dropping down to the Juniors?
Or is this just about the financial benefits for some teams and not the football.

Shippy furra start never will be in the lowland league and oot their depth in east league

[leomessi1984]

2 hours ago, non_sequitur said:

 

Shippy furra start never will be in the lowland league and oot their depth in east league

Kelty have treated all opponents with a good level of respect but tbf have handed out a few drubbings.  There a couple of teams that playing wise are lower level juniorif not good amateur teams, although every one of them seems very well run which makes them a bit different.  Would say Shippy are far from the worst team in the EOSL so to say they are out their depth is probably harsh.

[Sergeant Wilson]

6 hours ago, Jambo'ness said:

Taking a step back and reviewing all the comments, I can see both sides.

Those clubs who have spent money wish to protect their interests and don't want clubs getting into the framework without undergoing the compliance they had to.

Then, on the other side, there are a bunch of clubs who have not really been given much encouragement to proceed.  It's all well and good saying the LL was open to all at its inception but nobody knew if it would just crash and burn and then where were clubs left?

To avoid us all fighting amongst ourselves, the SFA should be taking a real hold on it and driving the 'pyramid idea' forwards.  Instead, they drag their feet, hoping clubs will take the initiative.  If the SFA are serious, they need to be at the forefront.  Not just laying down rules but actively working with clubs to progress.

Exacly, there was and still is a chance to revitalise lower/non league football. It just needs a bit of imagination and compromise. Given some thought, I'm sure there's a formula to integrate the juniors at an appropriate level. Any existing SoS or LL club "dropping" a level might be compensated by playing in a new, more interesting division that will attract local and visiting supporters.

[cowdenbeath]

22 hours ago, Burnie_man said:

On the much vaunted myth regarding players at the cost of facilities, here’s some improvements in the old East Region off the top of my head over the last 20 years, by clubs who have not benefited from Scottish Cup cash (apart from one game for Bathgate). Might be more I’ve missed;

Blackburn Utd: New ground, lights, 3G

Dunbar Utd: New ground, lights

Newtongrange: New ground, lights

West Calder Utd: New ground

Broxburn Ath: Ground rebuilt, lights, 3G

Tranent: New pavilion, pitch, other improvements

Musselburgh Athletic: Extensive renovations

Sauchie: New Stand, lights

Easthouses: New stand, lights

Bathgate Thistle: New enclosure, already had lights

Pumpherston: Renovated enclosure

Fauldhouse: Improvements to enclosure, pitchside barrier renewed

Dalkeith: Lights, new enclosure and pavilion

Haddington: New pitchside barrier, new pavilion

Penicuik Athletic: New lights

Whitburn: Seated stand

I’m sure someone can come up with a similar list in the West Region.

In times gone by a lot of money has been wasted on players whilst playing in decrepit holes, that changed a while back. Each one of the grounds mentioned above is perfectly adequate for LL football .

I believe HOB Haws have added another covered enclosure at the village end so you can add them onto your list of recent improvements and of course another side with the Devils Lanterns.

[Goalie Hamish]

3 hours ago, Sergeant Wilson said:

Any existing SoS or LL club "dropping" a level might be compensated by playing in a new, more interesting division that will attract local and visiting supporters.

The current South Junior Division is the perfect environment for the likes of Burntisland, Coldstream, Ormiston, Peebles, Eyemouth and Coldstream with more equitable competition and they get to keep their licence if the East of Scotland merges with the Juniors in the Pyramid. This is what it could look like

Burntisland Shipyard, Coldstream, Crossgates Primrose, Craigroyston, Easthouses Lily MW, Eyemouth Utd, Harthill Royal, Kirkcaldy YM, Livingston United, Lochgelly Albert, Oakley United,  Ormiston, Peebles Rovers, Rosyth, Stoneyburn Juniors, West Calder United 

7 Lothians, 6 Fife, 3 Borders clubs.   In Burntisland’s case, 5 games in Fife and only three trips to the borders. Has to be a better environment to develop and attract players and be competitive most games plus a derby against Kirkcaldy and Scottish Cup entry.  The likes of Tynecastle, Leith, Preston, Herriot Watt integrate higher up the Junior pyramid.  This is the sort of stuff that should be getting discussed between the two organisations and for the Juniors I’m no sure what there is to be scared of.

[Deanburn Dave]

I like the general idea of "finding your level" through a pyramid structure but it's when you get down to the nitty gritty of the details on what it would look like that anomalies pop up and the disagreements start.

[Che Dail]

14 hours ago, Auld Heid said:

Turning your post around - how many EoS clubs would benefit more from dropping down to the Juniors?

Or is this just about the financial benefits for some teams and not the football.

Promoting the Junior grade to EoS clubs, what would the 'sales pitch' be... what are the football benefits?

Work all the way to the Super League, at great cost, for what reward? 

Or stay where you are, get a licence, build up your club and do a Fraserburgh. 

[8MileBU]

Turning your post around - how many EoS clubs would benefit more from dropping down to the Juniors?
Or is this just about the financial benefits for some teams and not the football.

Unfortunately that’s how it is for numerous teams and is a case of needs-must.

[8MileBU]

OK - It seems I am not fully up to date with the improvements that have been taking place within the junior ranks. Slapped wrist for me !

My next question would be

 If the grounds they have are fit for the LL - why then would the junior teams require a couple of years grace to get a licence ??

If Kelty can make the transition in the timeframe as they did - what's the problem for the rest ??

 

Most other clubs don’t have the financial backing Kelty have had from their various sponsors, whilst Fife Council also played a big part in backing their upgrading, so clubs that would be able to make the transition in the timeframe Kelty did are very few and far between. Certainly, any Junior clubs in the Falkirk area looking for backing from the council have next to no chance as Falkirk Council are an absolute shambles who’ve frittered money away and fucked up big time.

 

The main thing Kelty have had going in their favour is a good, forward thinking committee with a vision that their sponsors and fans have got behind and has been built on and inspired by the club becoming a successful team in the Juniors.

[cmontheloknow]

7 hours ago, Che Dail said:

Promoting the Junior grade to EoS clubs, what would the 'sales pitch' be... what are the football benefits?

Work all the way to the Super League, at great cost, for what reward? 

Or stay where you are, get a licence, build up your club and do a Fraserburgh. 

The clubs we're talking about are more Fraserburgh United than Fraserburgh FC.

[cmontheloknow]

15 hours ago, cowdenbeath said:

I believe HOB Haws have added another covered enclosure at the village end so you can add them onto your list of recent improvements and of course another side with the Devils Lanterns.

Out of interest, what's the general feeling among your fanbase of the Kelty rise?

[Hillonearth]

7 hours ago, Che Dail said:

Promoting the Junior grade to EoS clubs, what would the 'sales pitch' be... what are the football benefits?

Work all the way to the Super League, at great cost, for what reward? 

Or stay where you are, get a licence, build up your club and do a Fraserburgh. 

Dunno if there's anyone on here from either Craigroyston or Easthouses, but they're the ones to ask as they evidently saw moving the other way as a more viable alternative.

There was at least one other EoS club seriously looking at the move last I heard as well...no idea if that's still the case.

Wouldn't work for everyone naturally - there's no chance of Coldstream or Tweedmouth doing it for much the same reasons that there's no chance of any West Junior club joining the SoS league.

ETA - What's "doing a Fraserburgh" incidentally? Barring a monumental collapse from Cove, they've got absolutely no chance of promotion from the Highland League this season.

Are you actually defining ultimate success as getting the chance of a payday against one of the ugly sisters in the cup?

[Auld Heid]

7 hours ago, Che Dail said:

Promoting the Junior grade to EoS clubs, what would the 'sales pitch' be... what are the football benefits?

Work all the way to the Super League, at great cost, for what reward? 

Or stay where you are, get a licence, build up your club and do a Fraserburgh. 

The main reason is  financial (IMO) as KEFC has previously said as much - the football is a side issue as ultimately they become another small team in a big pond (SPFL).

The reward for the Super League isn't financial it's purely football.   Kelty had the opportunity to become a force in the juniors but  chose financial.   Linlithgow and Talbot have shown that building a strong club breeds success on the pitch - both as a result enjoy the support of their local community.

I'm not a fan of the pyramid as the only focus is on progression  and not enough on getting teams to their most appropriate position.   To work you would start  from scratch - with the lesser teams re-graded accordingly.

 

[Cyclizine]

I'm not a fan of the pyramid as the only focus is on progression  and not enough on getting teams to their most appropriate position.   To work you would start  from scratch - with the lesser teams re-graded accordingly.
 

The whole point of a pyramid is getting teams to their most appropriate position! I'm looking forward to your criteria for differentiating the 'lesser teams' from the chosen ones.

[leomessi1984]

47 minutes ago, Auld Heid said:

The main reason is  financial (IMO) as KEFC has previously said as much - the football is a side issue as ultimately they become another small team in a big pond (SPFL).

The reward for the Super League isn't financial it's purely football.   Kelty had the opportunity to become a force in the juniors but  chose financial.   Linlithgow and Talbot have shown that building a strong club breeds success on the pitch - both as a result enjoy the support of their local community.

I'm not a fan of the pyramid as the only focus is on progression  and not enough on getting teams to their most appropriate position.   To work you would start  from scratch - with the lesser teams re-graded accordingly.

 

Kelty chose financial? Building a strong club? 

Surely Kelty are doing exactly that, building a strong club that will last with a great venue and ever increasing fanbase.  Nonsense post.

[Auld Heid]

33 minutes ago, Cyclizine said:

The whole point of a pyramid is getting teams to their most appropriate position! I'm looking forward to your criteria for differentiating the 'lesser teams' from the chosen ones.

Using a previous reply as one example - Burntisland Shipyard, the suggestion is they are not in a league appropriate to their status and would be better suited elsewhere - pretty sure there are many others.  

Ground criteria would also come into play - there should be set standards that teams require to meet.

Overall for me - you  start from scratch with rules and guidelines which teams require to meet or they are demoted.  At present we have a pyramid with not every team able to progress but can stop others.