Kelty Hearts & the EOS League

[parsforlife]

They rent them, in some cases miles away from where they are supposed to be from.   In the interests of sorting out the shambles that is fitba in this country, introducing a grace period should be the least of our worries, the precedent is there, but the tribalism on both sides of this means that we might never get there.

Absolutely nothing wrong with renting your stadium, something clubs have been doing for over a century.

There is no president for a grace period with promotion and relegation in place.

We can move on from the current position. a West/Central league can be formed at tier 6 with little hassle, clubs can get licenced in tier 6 and if/when the number of licenced clubs in the south is substantially more than the north a LL split can occur.

[VodkaTap]

When the pyramid started, junior teams & the formative LL teams took very different routes to where we are now.
The priority for the LL teams was to get licenced as quickly as possible. The available pot of money meant that the quality on the pitch took the inevitable hit.
Now that the initial investment is over the priority can be switched to the team on the pitch which is why we are seeing standards rise.
The junior teams took a very different view as they did not believe in what was being offered so their priority remained to be the quality of the team on the pitch.
Attitudes within the junior ranks seem to be changing with regards to participating in the pyramid structure.
The issue seems to be that while they would need to switch priorities, they do not also want to take the hit of the quality of team on the pitch.
Since the junior teams have a bigger pot of money available due to their far larger crowds then achieving a licence should be that much easier.
Being prepared to switch priorities, for the junior teams to achieve a licence, is a much harder ask.

[8MileBU]

It’s all about the B.U!

[Auld Heid]

7 minutes ago, lithgierose said:

2K well spent imo.but loads more spent on bringing the ground up to standard.new toilet block.disabled toilet.new covering in the new year for disabled customers.65k or there abouts for new league standard floodlights.the list goes on.no bad for the wee rose eh.hows the flaking paint second hand huts coming along at boness.

It's ok the Newtown Park Association will pay for it all - they criticise their neighbours for investing in their club - but don't want to spend a penny on their own club.   

4 minutes ago, newcastle broon said:

It's no aboot crowds tho Hamish yer argument was criteria on the park and the LL clubs have done it as again back to the topic Kelty have done. 

Without crowds do you really have a viable club?

Football clubs should be an important part of their community not just a plaything for individuals.

[newcastle broon]

11 minutes ago, Auld Heid said:

 

Without crowds do you really have a viable club?

Football clubs should be an important part of their community not just a plaything for individuals.

Well we've managed over the years. 

Players win games, no fans. Winning teams bring fans/glory hunters? 

If these clubs that are getting criticism in the LL fold then fair enough you have a valid point. 

Until then................... 

[Burnie_man]

57 minutes ago, Goalie Hamish said:

The LL is no gonnae give anyone................

The SJFA are no gonnae concede anything............

See the proboem we have here...........

You’re wasting your time with the idea of a LL(West) and LL(East) set-up, there’s too much self-interest to allow that to happen from the position of where we are just now, just look at this thread.

I came to the conclusion a while back is that the only way forward is for an orderly merger of EoSFL and East Region Juniors, and for the West Juniors to fill the void with a new WoSFL.  Both these to feed into the current LL (with the SoSFL if any clubs in it are interested). Perhaps if that was to happen then in years to come when Junior clubs begin to dominate the LL in terms of numbers, change can be forced from within as a single 16 team LL for all of Scotland south of the Tay is not fit for purpose.

[GLENAFTON93]

1 hour ago, VodkaTap said:

When the pyramid started, junior teams & the formative LL teams took very different routes to where we are now.
The priority for the LL teams was to get licenced as quickly as possible. The available pot of money meant that the quality on the pitch took the inevitable hit.
Now that the initial investment is over the priority can be switched to the team on the pitch which is why we are seeing standards rise.
The junior teams took a very different view as they did not believe in what was being offered so their priority remained to be the quality of the team on the pitch.
Attitudes within the junior ranks seem to be changing with regards to participating in the pyramid structure.
The issue seems to be that while they would need to switch priorities, they do not also want to take the hit of the quality of team on the pitch.
Since the junior teams have a bigger pot of money available due to their far larger crowds then achieving a licence should be that much easier.
Being prepared to switch priorities, for the junior teams to achieve a licence, is a much harder ask.

This seems to be a common belief that Junior teams have been investing in the team on the park rather than off the park, in the past probably my own team have been guilty of that but those days are gone. Within a 10 mile area we have 3 teams with excellent facilities , Talbot, Cumnock and Glenafton and we have recently revamped our social premises in the ground as many have seen and have had an excellent corporate facility for years , and just finished laying a new entrance surface and turnstyle entry  . I would suggest that there are other Junior teams that have all invested in their grounds  way before any pyramid or LL was talked about, so to generalise the Juniors as taking one way and the pyramid teams as another just isnt true.  

[Guest]

15 minutes ago, GLENAFTON93 said:

This seems to be a common belief that Junior teams have been investing in the team on the park rather than off the park, in the past probably my own team have been guilty of that but those days are gone. Within a 10 mile area we have 3 teams with excellent facilities , Talbot, Cumnock and Glenafton and we have recently revamped our social premises in the ground as many have seen and have had an excellent corporate facility for years , and just finished laying a new entrance surface and turnstyle entry  . I would suggest that there are other Junior teams that have all invested in their grounds  way before any pyramid or LL was talked about, so to generalise the Juniors as taking one way and the pyramid teams as another just isnt true.  

Totally agree, plenty of Junior teams have greatly improved their grounds you could add Meadow, Troon, Beith to the list. To back up your point that in the past clubs were guilty of paying big money to the squads and ignoring the facilities, the Buffs were guilty , but now are investing in the ground, therefore the notion that the juniors are all short term fix and lack of foresight belongs in the past. It is also worth saying that it is harder to secure funding if you are a junior club than those in the other grades discussed, so all these clubs deserve credit.

[The Mantis]

48 minutes ago, GLENAFTON93 said:

This seems to be a common belief that Junior teams have been investing in the team on the park rather than off the park, in the past probably my own team have been guilty of that but those days are gone. Within a 10 mile area we have 3 teams with excellent facilities , Talbot, Cumnock and Glenafton and we have recently revamped our social premises in the ground as many have seen and have had an excellent corporate facility for years , and just finished laying a new entrance surface and turnstyle entry  . I would suggest that there are other Junior teams that have all invested in their grounds  way before any pyramid or LL was talked about, so to generalise the Juniors as taking one way and the pyramid teams as another just isnt true.  

You sure about that? Juniors have been in the Scottish Cup since 2007. Apart from the excellent examples set by Lithgae and Talbot, it seems to me that you've only mentioned Glenafton  who have recently made money from the Cup (Bonnyrigg are in the same boat and are improving their park). I believe Cumnock's new setup is paid for by the council/community and possibly in response to their more successful neighbours down the road). So what is more important to me is, how many clubs made significant ground improvements before 2013 when the LL was set up, and especially clubs which haven't had a shot at the Scottish yet.

[VodkaTap]

37 minutes ago, GLENAFTON93 said:

This seems to be a common belief that Junior teams have been investing in the team on the park rather than off the park, in the past probably my own team have been guilty of that but those days are gone. Within a 10 mile area we have 3 teams with excellent facilities , Talbot, Cumnock and Glenafton and we have recently revamped our social premises in the ground as many have seen and have had an excellent corporate facility for years , and just finished laying a new entrance surface and turnstyle entry  . I would suggest that there are other Junior teams that have all invested in their grounds  way before any pyramid or LL was talked about, so to generalise the Juniors as taking one way and the pyramid teams as another just isnt true.  

I do accept that I made a sweeping generalisation regarding junior teams & their efforts to modernise.

But if, as you suggest, quite a few are near to meeting the conditions for a licence - why are they so reluctant to take that final step ??

 

[GLENAFTON93]

18 minutes ago, The Mantis said:

You sure about that? Juniors have been in the Scottish Cup since 2007. Apart from the excellent examples of Lithgae and Talbot, it seems to me the clubs you mention (plus Bonnyrigg) have recently made money from the Cup (except Cumnock, but I believe their new setup is paid for by the council/community and possibly in response to their more successful neighbours down the road). So what is more important to me is, how many clubs made significant ground improvements before 2013 when the LL was set up, and especially clubs which haven't had a shot at the Scottish yet.

Sure about what exactly?  the three clubs i quoted have all invested in their facilities Long before any entry to the Senior cup, and well done Cumnock on the investment that has been put into Townhead Park , probably not what  certain posters want to hear about the Juniors cause its easier to spout the past mistakes, and make no mistake their are some very forward looking people running some Junior Clubs and are very aware what has to be done on and off the park.

[Hillonearth]

11 minutes ago, VodkaTap said:

I do accept that I made a sweeping generalisation regarding junior teams & their efforts to modernise.

But if, as you suggest, quite a few are near to meeting the conditions for a licence - why are they so reluctant to take that final step ??

 

Can't talk for sides in the East, but over this side of the country there's simply nowhere realistic to go, certainly not the SoS.

My team already plays in a licensed ground, and having had a look at the off-field licensing criteria, already does everything mandated in there. I imagine most reasonably well-run clubs do anyway - we're nothing out of the ordinary.

As things stand with the options available there's not a hope in hell of us pulling the trigger though.

[energyzone]

I do accept that I made a sweeping generalisation regarding junior teams & their efforts to modernise.
But if, as you suggest, quite a few are near to meeting the conditions for a licence - why are they so reluctant to take that final step ??
 

Because now the door has been shut. The only way into the big Scottish cup is by winning the junior cup or one of the three Superleagues.

Even if a junior club met the criteria for a licence it still wouldn't guarantee them access into the senior cup now, so what would be the point?

The only way round this (in the West anyway) is for a club to join the SOS league and sacrifice the money they make from visiting fans and perhaps a junior cup run, in return for at least a year travelling large distances and making almost nothing from visiting fans.

It's completely impractical at the moment. Either everyone goes or nobody goes.

[VodkaTap]

1 minute ago, Hillonearth said:

Can't talk for sides in the East, but over this side of the country there's simply nowhere realistic to go, certainly not the SoS.

My team already plays in a licensed ground, and having had a look at the off-field licensing criteria, already does everything mandated in there. I imagine most reasonably well-run clubs do anyway - we're nothing out of the ordinary.

As things stand with the options available there's not a hope in hell of us pulling the trigger though.

That still does not answer the question as to why junior clubs, in the main. are reluctant to take the fina step and get a licence ??

If enough junior clubs achieved a licence then am sure the current pyramid system would be revisited.

To me that is the way forward.

[Hillonearth]

Just now, VodkaTap said:

That still does not answer the question as to why junior clubs, in the main. are reluctant to take the fina step and get a licence ??

If enough junior clubs achieved a licence then am sure the current pyramid system would be revisited.

To me that is the way forward.

Simple - any club going for a club license at the moment requires to make a commitment to join the Pyramid as it stands, i.e. the nonsense of SoS being the ostensible feeder for the whole west of the country.

There's not exactly ever going to be a queue to jump over that particular cliff in the name of an ideal in the hope it might change things.

 

[The Mantis]

5 minutes ago, GLENAFTON93 said:

Sure about what exactly?  the three clubs i quoted have all invested in their facilities Long before any entry to the Senior cup, and well done Cumnock on the investment that has been put into Townhead Park , probably not what  certain posters want to hear about the Juniors cause its easier to spout the past mistakes, and make no mistake their are some very forward looking people running some Junior Clubs and are very aware what has to be done on and off the park.

We've already discussed these clubs though, I was looking for other examples, and not sure if Cumnock supports your argument anyway. Just for the record, I've been at pretty much all the grounds in the top two divisions, both East and West. I also know from experience just how much hard graft it is just to keep a club ticking along, never mind ground improvements as well.

Congratulations on all your upgrades though, I was at the Bonnyrigg game last season. Fair enough if you can't give examples outside your bit of Ayrshire, it was aimed at other posters as well.

[Burnie_man]

On the much vaunted myth regarding players at the cost of facilities, here’s some improvements in the old East Region off the top of my head over the last 20 years, by clubs who have not benefited from Scottish Cup cash (apart from one game for Bathgate). Might be more I’ve missed;

Blackburn Utd: New ground, lights, 3G

Dunbar Utd: New ground, lights

Newtongrange: New ground, lights

West Calder Utd: New ground

Broxburn Ath: Ground rebuilt, lights, 3G

Tranent: New pavilion, pitch, other improvements

Musselburgh Athletic: Extensive renovations

Sauchie: New Stand, lights

Easthouses: New stand, lights

Bathgate Thistle: New enclosure, already had lights

Pumpherston: Renovated enclosure

Fauldhouse: Improvements to enclosure, pitchside barrier renewed

Dalkeith: Lights, new enclosure and pavilion

Haddington: New pitchside barrier, new pavilion

Penicuik Athletic: New lights

Whitburn: Seated stand

I’m sure someone can come up with a similar list in the West Region.

In times gone by a lot of money has been wasted on players whilst playing in decrepit holes, that changed a while back. Each one of the grounds mentioned above is perfectly adequate for LL football .

[Goalie Hamish]

2 hours ago, Burnie_man said:

 Each one of the grounds mentioned above is perfectly adequate for LL football .

That was what I was getting at earlier, we shouldn't allow a bit of paper stop a proper re-organisation of the non-league game, these grounds are fine for Lowland League football. However I accept that a West of Scotland League is probably the best we can hope just now given the tribalism of our game.

[VodkaTap]

5 hours ago, Burnie_man said:

On the much vaunted myth regarding players at the cost of facilities, here’s some improvements in the old East Region off the top of my head over the last 20 years, by clubs who have not benefited from Scottish Cup cash (apart from one game for Bathgate). Might be more I’ve missed;

Blackburn Utd: New ground, lights, 3G

Dunbar Utd: New ground, lights

Newtongrange: New ground, lights

West Calder Utd: New ground

Broxburn Ath: Ground rebuilt, lights, 3G

Tranent: New pavilion, pitch, other improvements

Musselburgh Athletic: Extensive renovations

Sauchie: New Stand, lights

Easthouses: New stand, lights

Bathgate Thistle: New enclosure, already had lights

Pumpherston: Renovated enclosure

Fauldhouse: Improvements to enclosure, pitchside barrier renewed

Dalkeith: Lights, new enclosure and pavilion

Haddington: New pitchside barrier, new pavilion

Penicuik Athletic: New lights

Whitburn: Seated stand

I’m sure someone can come up with a similar list in the West Region.

In times gone by a lot of money has been wasted on players whilst playing in decrepit holes, that changed a while back. Each one of the grounds mentioned above is perfectly adequate for LL football .

OK - It seems I am not fully up to date with the improvements that have been taking place within the junior ranks. Slapped wrist for me !

My next question would be

 If the grounds they have are fit for the LL - why then would the junior teams require a couple of years grace to get a licence ??

If Kelty can make the transition in the timeframe as they did - what's the problem for the rest ??

[lithgierose]

5 hours ago, Burnie_man said:

On the much vaunted myth regarding players at the cost of facilities, here’s some improvements in the old East Region off the top of my head over the last 20 years, by clubs who have not benefited from Scottish Cup cash (apart from one game for Bathgate). Might be more I’ve missed;

Blackburn Utd: New ground, lights, 3G

Dunbar Utd: New ground, lights

Newtongrange: New ground, lights

West Calder Utd: New ground

Broxburn Ath: Ground rebuilt, lights, 3G

Tranent: New pavilion, pitch, other improvements

Musselburgh Athletic: Extensive renovations

Sauchie: New Stand, lights

Easthouses: New stand, lights

Bathgate Thistle: New enclosure, already had lights

Pumpherston: Renovated enclosure

Fauldhouse: Improvements to enclosure, pitchside barrier renewed

Dalkeith: Lights, new enclosure and pavilion

Haddington: New pitchside barrier, new pavilion

Penicuik Athletic: New lights

Whitburn: Seated stand

I’m sure someone can come up with a similar list in the West Region.

In times gone by a lot of money has been wasted on players whilst playing in decrepit holes, that changed a while back. Each one of the grounds mentioned above is perfectly adequate for LL football .

was that put in place after the storm damage ?