North Caledonian League Expansion

[Cyclizine]

25 minutes ago, Snafu said:

It's easy with hindsight to look back and criticise the decision to move from the NCL to the Juniors but the point of the club was for amateur players in the Inverness area to play at the highest level possible below the HL and above the amateurs who play in the summer which was lacking in Inverness for decades. Even if they had remained in the NCL they would have still had the problem of finding a pitch to play on same as Athletic, the pitch over at North Kessock was widely disliked.

Not sure what you mean by until they had a workable plan as before City were promoted and played in the lower leagues they were reduced to playing at Elgin, Nairn, Forres or Burghead anywhere where there was a pitch to play on. This was straining the club financially and very few supporters if any traveled out to see them outside Inverness where as before when they played within Inverness it was not uncommon to see crowds of over 100 at home games. So even if the club had remained in the lower leagues very little ground wise would change and the club would continue to have a nomad existence with no prospects which would put good players off joining them, put off backing and reduce the committee which would eventually result in the club closing down. Would that have been a workable plan?

As for sustainable, yes the club was sustainable that was down to the hard work of the committee through the years and the other people involved with the club including some of the players all who gave up their own time to keep the club running. You have to remember that these people involved put their own time and their own money into the club and you obviously can't imagine the stress involved even when the club had to set up Lister Park. Most of the original committee from the days when the club played at the NMP had left by the time Lister Park was constructed.

btw Athletic are struggling right now even trying to find 11 players to field and have had to pull out of one of the cups as a result. Large fixture backlog as well. Never happened at City.

I understand entirely why City were founded, but the point still stands that as a newly formed club, they had to work within the confines of the facilities available. It was all very well having the admirable plan to "fill the gap" between the amateurs and HFL in Inverness, but the timescales were just unfeasible. I don't doubt a lot of hard work went in from the committee, just like committees everywhere work hard: you say that they were sustainable, but they clearly were not if they could not survive without committee members funding them.

23 minutes ago, Snafu said:

Where and which ones could be converted to the standards required?

This is my point, City took a leap into  divisions with specific ground requirements, that was always going to take time to resolve. Lister Park became a millstone around their neck. I don't disagree they were stuck between a rock and a hard place, but I still don't see why people think the council should have handed them a ground to develop at the expense of other Inverness clubs in different disciplines and other Highland football clubs.

Edited February 28, 2020 by Cyclizine

[Robert James]

On 28/02/2020 at 16:57, Snafu said:

It's easy with hindsight to look back and criticise the decision to move from the NCL to the Juniors but the point of the club was for amateur players in the Inverness area to play at the highest level possible below the HL and above the amateurs who play in the summer which was lacking in Inverness for decades. Even if they had remained in the NCL they would have still had the problem of finding a pitch to play on same as Athletic, the pitch over at North Kessock was widely disliked.

Not sure what you mean by until they had a workable plan as before City were promoted and played in the lower leagues they were reduced to playing at Elgin, Nairn, Forres or Burghead anywhere where there was a pitch to play on. This was straining the club financially and very few supporters if any traveled out to see them outside Inverness where as before when they played within Inverness it was not uncommon to see crowds of over 100 at home games. So even if the club had remained in the lower leagues very little ground wise would change and the club would continue to have a nomad existence with no prospects which would put good players off joining them, put off backing and reduce the committee which would eventually result in the club closing down. Would that have been a workable plan?

As for sustainable, yes the club was sustainable that was down to the hard work of the committee through the years and the other people involved with the club including some of the players all who gave up their own time to keep the club running. You have to remember that these people involved put their own time and their own money into the club and you obviously can't imagine the stress involved even when the club had to set up Lister Park. Most of the original committee from the days when the club played at the NMP had left by the time Lister Park was constructed.

btw Athletic are struggling right now even trying to find 11 players to field and have had to pull out one of the  cups as a result. Large fixture backlog as well. Never happened at City. 

 

 

 

Yes, Inverness Athletic have been struggling for players during the last month or so.  It is however incorrect to suggest that Athletic has a large fixture backlog.  They have only one more North Caley league game to play this season :  on Sat 4th April at home to Orkney FC.

 

[Ray Patterson]

On 28/02/2020 at 13:27, Cyclizine said:

What do you have against other sports? It's not just about football. 

Canal Park didn't just get funding from the council: There was significant input from the SRU and Sport Scotland too. Highland RFC run multiple adult teams and loads of age group teams with hundreds of kids playing.

There are and were extensive amateur football facilities in Inverness plus two senior grounds. Inverness City came in as a new club, it was only the requirements of the Superleague that meant they had to improve the facilities. They could've come up with a sustainable plan staying in the NCL or even First Division of the NRJFA, but they chased promotion without a plan for where they'd play.

They knew from the start the Bught was temporary. I know it sounds harsh, but the council didn't owe them a ground, any more than they owe Fort William or Thurso new pitches. The chairman then had the gall to accuse them of favouritism over the Dalneigh pitches, where Clach have trained and run kids football for years.

Oiut of Interest what is the Superleague ground requirements? I've seen them mentioned over the years but never seen any definitive criteria.

[Burnie_man]

How many actual football "grounds" are in Inverness?   obviously ICT and Clach, but what other football grounds (not pitches) are there, ie enclosed and with a rail around the pitch?

[ShrimpLok]

1 hour ago, Burnie_man said:

How many actual football "grounds" are in Inverness?   obviously ICT and Clach, but what other football grounds (not pitches) are there, ie enclosed and with a rail around the pitch?

Not many. 3G at Millburn Academy and Inverness Royal Academy but nothing really like a proper football ground. 

Interesting that the Shinty folk are having some of the same problems at Bught as City did:
https://www.inverness-courier.co.uk/sport/save-our-shinty-is-inverness-clubs-distress-call-who-want-bught-park-191554/

If anyone is serious about creating an additional semi-pro football facility in Inverness it seems to me the Torvean Gateway development of the old golf course is the best bet for securing a location. Would need a lot of money / work though. 
https://www.pressandjournal.co.uk/fp/news/inverness/1649937/public-attend-exhibition-of-masterplan-for-inverness-torvean-gateway/

[Burnie_man]

2 minutes ago, ShrimpLok said:

Not many. 3G at Millburn Academy and Inverness Royal Academy but nothing really like a proper football ground. 

Interesting that the Shinty folk are having some of the same problems at Bught as City did:
https://www.inverness-courier.co.uk/sport/save-our-shinty-is-inverness-clubs-distress-call-who-want-bught-park-191554/

If anyone is serious about creating an additional semi-pro football facility in Inverness it seems to me the Torvean Gateway development of the old golf course is the best bet for securing a location. Would need a lot of money / work though. 
https://www.pressandjournal.co.uk/fp/news/inverness/1649937/public-attend-exhibition-of-masterplan-for-inverness-torvean-gateway/

Thanks.  Inverness is pretty poorly served in that case, and of course one of the two is out of commission currently.

 

[Cyclizine]

The problem with the Bught is how the council acquired it, it was essentially bought at a knock down price at first refusal in the 1920s(?) by the Burgh council with covenants attached about open access for recreation. Part of the issue with City's development of Lister Park was the presumption that permanent development might not be in keeping with the deeds, hence the temporary leasing.

Plus, the thought that Highland Council (and the Inverness District Council) before that may not technically be the true owners of the Bught, which might be nebulously owned by the "People of Inverness".

At the time the council wasn't keen to pay for the legal advice needed, I suspect they'd be even less keen now given their financial issues. Perhaps if funding for it could be secured elsewhere, then there's a chance. The likelihood of someone mounting a legal challenge would be slim (but couldn't be discounted: look at the Formartine Utd badge saga...)

[welshbairn]

The Northern Meeting Park was used by Inverness City for a bit, but there were complaints that the grass was cut up too much for Summer cricket. Shame they couldn't find a solution, it would be a great place for football. Someone might correct me on the details, it was before I moved up here.

[Robert James]

9 hours ago, ArabAuslander said:

Oiut of Interest what is the Superleague ground requirements? I've seen them mentioned over the years but never seen any definitive criteria.

"Superleague" is not a title used by the Scottish senior leagues. It related to the juniors.

Ground standards vary within the  junior and senior leagues, at tier 6 and below, . However the leading senior & junior clubs usually have an enclosed ground, whereas at lower levels in these leagues, they often don't.  Some clubs  have no boundary fencing, whilst some others play in a 'cage' often associated with an outdoor sports centre.

However, higher standards apply at pyramid tier 5  in the Highland & Lowland Leagues. To play at this level, clubs must have an SFA Licence, which requires floodlights, higher standards of dressing rooms, boundary fences, some benefits for the disabled,  cover for 100 fans or more, and a few other essential facilities, including toilets (within the ground) for both men and women.  

Senior clubs playing in  (or joining) the EoSL or the SoSL, or the newly proposed WoSL, do NOT  need floodlights, or a club license, unless the wish to be promoted to tier 5. 

Further Licensing details (for Tier 5) can be obtained in the SFA Handbook 2019/20, for clubs which have ambitious to be promoted to the HFL or SLL, or  "onwards and upwards" to     the SPFL.. Clubs considering joining the pyramid at tier 6 or below, are advised to talk to the League Secretaries, if they have any concerns, or doubts, about their ground's suitability.

[Spyro]

Thought North Kessock would be a good option for a team but it appears to have been nimby’ed. It’s grim, there’s talk of Alness looking to get going again but ALL the pitches in the town have been built on now.

[Ray Patterson]

6 hours ago, Robert James said:

"Superleague" is not a title used by the Scottish senior leagues. It related to the juniors.

Ground standards vary within the  junior and senior leagues, at tier 6 and below, . However the leading senior & junior clubs usually have an enclosed ground, whereas at lower levels in these leagues, they often don't.  Some clubs  have no boundary fencing, whilst some others play in a 'cage' often associated with an outdoor sports centre.

However, higher standards apply at pyramid tier 5  in the Highland & Lowland Leagues. To play at this level, clubs must have an SFA Licence, which requires floodlights, higher standards of dressing rooms, boundary fences, some benefits for the disabled,  cover for 100 fans or more, and a few other essential facilities, including toilets (within the ground) for both men and women.  

Senior clubs playing in  (or joining) the EoSL or the SoSL, or the newly proposed WoSL, do NOT  need floodlights, or a club license, unless the wish to be promoted to tier 5. 

Further Licensing details (for Tier 5) can be obtained in the SFA Handbook 2019/20, for clubs which have ambitious to be promoted to the HFL or SLL, or  "onwards and upwards" to     the SPFL.. Clubs considering joining the pyramid at tier 6 or below, are advised to talk to the League Secretaries, if they have any concerns, or doubts, about their ground's suitability.

Yes I know all this. 

Someone mentioned there being ground requirements for the North Superleague that Inverness City struggled to meet, as someone who's been to a few North Super games I was wondering what those criteria are. 

Edited March 2, 2020 by ArabAuslander

[Cyclizine]

53 minutes ago, ArabAuslander said:

Yes I know all this. 

Someone mentioned there being ground requirements for the North Superleague that Inverness City struggled to meet, as someone who's been to a few North Super games I was wondering what those criteria are. 

The Superleague requires a railed pitch and a boundary fence. Nairn Saints had issues with promotion as the Showfield wasn't enclosed. Much less stringent below the Superleague and in the NCL.

[Robert James]

1 hour ago, ArabAuslander said:

Yes I know all this. 

Someone mentioned there being ground requirements for the North Superleague that Inverness City struggled to meet, as someone who's been to a few North Super games I was wondering what those criteria are. 

As explained by Cyclizine, regarding the ground standards required by the former Superleague. .City spent a lot of money (apparent;y) to meet the required standards, without having security of tenure at Lister Park (Bught).

[welshbairn]

33 minutes ago, Cyclizine said:

The Superleague requires a railed pitch and a boundary fence. Nairn Saints had issues with promotion as the Showfield wasn't enclosed. Much less stringent below the Superleague and in the NCL.

Think they need changing rooms with showers too. A fair portion of the cost of Lister Park was fitting a water supply under the Shinty ground to the portacabins.

[Sherrif John Bunnell]

Just as a side note note to the current conversation, the Meeting Park has been left in a right state after the music concerts held there last year, especially down towards the council buildings side of the park.

There is a charity set up with the intention of taking over the park from the council, but I'm not sure if they would look any more favourably on it being used as a football pitch in the winter. https://northernmeetingpark.com/

It's a real shame that the gates are generally bolted shut in the summer when that end of town is teeming with cruise ship coaches.

[Robert James]

15 hours ago, Spyro said:

Thought North Kessock would be a good option for a team but it appears to have been nimby’ed. It’s grim, there’s talk of Alness looking to get going again but ALL the pitches in the town have been built on now.

Having been to North Kessock, when City first played there, it didn't seem too bad.  I accept that the ground is basic, and not in Inverness, as it is on the north side of the Moray Firth.  But  "nimby'ed",  why ?

[Cyclizine]

17 minutes ago, Robert James said:

Having been to North Kessock, when City first played there, it didn't seem too bad.  I accept that the ground is basic, and not in Inverness, as it is on the north side of the Moray Firth.  But  "nimby'ed",  why ?

The neighbours complained about the swearing from the players...

[Robert James]

3 hours ago, Cyclizine said:

The neighbours complained about the swearing from the players...

Uncle Bob says :   "Are they having a f*****g laugh ?

Edited March 3, 2020 by Robert James
post sent in error before completed

[stulch]

The neighbours complained about the swearing from the players...

[emoji23] 

 

Oh dear!

 

You're joking?

 

 

[Burnie_man]

16 hours ago, Sherrif John Bunnell said:

Just as a side note note to the current conversation, the Meeting Park has been left in a right state after the music concerts held there last year, especially down towards the council buildings side of the park.

There is a charity set up with the intention of taking over the park from the council, but I'm not sure if they would look any more favourably on it being used as a football pitch in the winter. https://northernmeetingpark.com/

It's a real shame that the gates are generally bolted shut in the summer when that end of town is teeming with cruise ship coaches.

Peebles Rovers share their ground with cricket and have done for decades, no reason why that arrangement at NMP couldn't work.