Fort William tomorrow

[Silverton End]

6-0 up @ Wick

Long trek back, hope they've a decent carry out for the bus trip

[HibeeJibee]

Fort William P-P Huntly

[Barry Ferguson's Hat]

Good result and one The Fort can hopefully build on.

[Hampden Diehard]

Pools panel result....home win!!!!

[Waspie]

On 25/10/2018 at 23:38, GordonS said:

The view from Claggan Park up Glen Nevis towards Sgurr a'Mhaim and Stob Ban in glorious, especially in winter when they're capped with snow. There's no view of Ben Nevis from there, or really anywhere in Fort William proper as it's under a shoulder of the hill, the absurdly names Meall an-t Suidhe. The reason it's absurd is because the entire last word is pronounced "ee"; rendered in English it would be Melantee (all three syllables emphasised equally).

I wish I was there right now...

Place-names are "absurd" because you don't understand how to pronounce them or the spelling system of the language? Strange way of thinking. Meall an t-Suidhe makes perfect sense. Unlike the many other anglicised names in the area. 

Melantee is a poor representation of it as well. If you had to do it that way it would be closer to something like 'myowll in two ye'. 

[GordonS]

4 minutes ago, Waspie said:

Place-names are "absurd" because you don't understand how to pronounce them or the spelling system of the language? Strange way of thinking. Meall an t-Suidhe makes perfect sense. Unlike the many other anglicised names in the area. 

Melantee is a poor representation of it as well. If you had to do it that way it would be closer to something like 'myowll in two ye'. 

I was being lighthearted, but sure, knock yourself out.

It's widely called Melantee in Fort William, with that anglicised spelling. There are guest houses and stuff named after it. I'm pretty sure that's a closer pronunciation than the one you've suggested.

[Waspie]

23 minutes ago, GordonS said:

I was being lighthearted, but sure, knock yourself out.

It's widely called Melantee in Fort William, with that anglicised spelling. There are guest houses and stuff named after it. I'm pretty sure that's a closer pronunciation than the one you've suggested.

Light hearted or not, it's a bizarre argument. Would you suggest Paris is absurdly named because the way it is pronounced in French doesn't match the way it looks to a monoglot English speaker? Or maybe you would, since you also seem to be lecturing a Gaelic speaker on how to pronounce Meall an t-Suidhe. But sure, knock yourself out . 

[GordonS]

10 minutes ago, Waspie said:

Light hearted or not, it's a bizarre argument. Would you suggest Paris is absurdly named because the way it is pronounced in French doesn't match the way it looks to a monoglot English speaker? Or maybe you would, since you also seem to be lecturing a Gaelic speaker on how to pronounce Meall an t-Suidhe. But sure, knock yourself out . 

You know how people say they speak menu Italian? Well, I speak mountain Gaelic. I loved the wee segments with Sorley MacLean on The Munro Show, and I've always taken care to try to get the pronunciations right. There's no question that in Fort William it's called Melantee, there's a Melantee street too, and that's what climbers all call it. Are you maybe slightly over-stressing the final part?

I called it absurd because the entire final word 'suidhe' is pronounced 'ee'. If Paris were pronounced 'ee' or 'ah', I might call that absurd too.

Anyway, I'll leave you to have the last word.

[invergowrie arab]

1 hour ago, GordonS said:

You know how people say they speak menu Italian? Well, I speak mountain Gaelic. I loved the wee segments with Sorley MacLean on The Munro Show, and I've always taken care to try to get the pronunciations right. There's no question that in Fort William it's called Melantee, there's a Melantee street too, and that's what climbers all call it. Are you maybe slightly over-stressing the final part?

I called it absurd because the entire final word 'suidhe' is pronounced 'ee'.

Yasssss. Gaelic pronunciation chat. Now we're talking.

Your hyphen is in the wrong place  it's an t-suidhe not an-t suidhe.

The final word is t-suidhe and in good mid minch Gaelic is exactly as Waspie described.

I don't doubt for a second people in FW call it Melantee but then again people pronounce Edinburgh Embra.

I wouldn't put any store in what climbers call it. The ignorant sods b*****dise any hill name they come across.

However that's the story of thousands of Gaelic place names from the Borders to the Butt. They get simplified and changed to make it easier for the Gall (that's OK the Gaels did the same to Brythonic and Norse names)

The fact that you say there are streets and buildings named Melantee lends credence to the idea it is a scotticized/anglicized mutation rather than an accurate approximation of the Gaelic.

I don't know enough about Lochaber Gaelic to know how close Melantee would be to Lochaber Gaelic, it would be absolute miles from island Gaelic, but then again Perthshire Gaelic was very big on shortening and simplifying diphthongs, losing grave accents and just being all round lazy b*****ds so if Lochaber was same maybe it's not so far away.

In summer in standard Gaelic as t-Samhradh (as towruch) but in Perthshire (as zowr)

So in conclusion we are all right.

Edited November 6, 2018 by invergowrie arab

[Waspie]

8 hours ago, GordonS said:

You know how people say they speak menu Italian? Well, I speak mountain Gaelic. I loved the wee segments with Sorley MacLean on The Munro Show, and I've always taken care to try to get the pronunciations right. There's no question that in Fort William it's called Melantee, there's a Melantee street too, and that's what climbers all call it. Are you maybe slightly over-stressing the final part?

I called it absurd because the entire final word 'suidhe' is pronounced 'ee'. If Paris were pronounced 'ee' or 'ah', I might call that absurd too.

Anyway, I'll leave you to have the last word.

Wow, well that post is truly absurd. You don't speak 'mountain Gaelic'. People in Fort William who can speak Gaelic don't call it Melantee. Climbers who can speak Gaelic don't call it Melantee. 

And since you're letting me have the final word I'll go with amadan. 

[Waspie]

6 hours ago, invergowrie arab said:

Yasssss. Gaelic pronunciation chat. Now we're talking.

Your hyphen is in the wrong place  it's an t-suidhe not an-t suidhe.

The final word is t-suidhe and in good mid minch Gaelic is exactly as Waspie described.

I don't doubt for a second people in FW call it Melantee but then again people pronounce Edinburgh Embra.

I wouldn't put any store in what climbers call it. The ignorant sods b*****dise any hill name they come across.

However that's the story of thousands of Gaelic place names from the Borders to the Butt. They get simplified and changed to make it easier for the Gall (that's OK the Gaels did the same to Brythonic and Norse names)

The fact that you say there are streets and buildings named Melantee lends credence to the idea it is a scotticized/anglicized mutation rather than an accurate approximation of the Gaelic.

I don't know enough about Lochaber Gaelic to know how close Melantee would be to Lochaber Gaelic, it would be absolute miles from island Gaelic, but then again Perthshire Gaelic was very big on shortening and simplifying diphthongs, losing grave accents and just being all round lazy b*****ds so if Lochaber was same maybe it's not so far away.

In summer in standard Gaelic as t-Samhradh (as towruch) but in Perthshire (as zowr)

So in conclusion we are all right.

You can get a good idea of Lochaber Gaelic by going to Cape Breton where there are still some older people speaking the dialect and where the revival is largely based on it. An interesting feature is l pronounced something like w in English. Nobody over there would say Melantee either .

To be honest, how English speakers pronounce Gaelic is no big deal. But describing something as "absurd" because you don't understand it is ridiculous. 

[invergowrie arab]

1 hour ago, Waspie said:

You can get a good idea of Lochaber Gaelic by going to Cape Breton where there are still some older people speaking the dialect and where the revival is largely based on it. An interesting feature is l pronounced something like w in English. Nobody over there would say Melantee either .

To be honest, how English speakers pronounce Gaelic is no big deal. But describing something as "absurd" because you don't understand it is ridiculous. 

Seadh. Ged-thà, tha an fior-cheist againn an canas iad bainne no benye no boinye? 

Edited November 6, 2018 by invergowrie arab

[The Mantis]

10 hours ago, GordonS said:

 

I called it absurd because the entire final word 'suidhe' is pronounced 'ee'. 

It’s not though. In isolation the word ‘suidhe’ would be roughly ‘soo-ye’. In conjunction with the ‘t-‘ it is an example of what’s called ‘elision’ which happens in many languages, even English, which means letters are elided, or missed out, and is exactly as Waspie says.

The trouble with mountaineers’ Gaelic is, it’s an example of a little knowledge being a dangerous thing. If you actually learned a bit of Gaelic, and I mean a little, you’d see how the rules worked, and they’re actually consistent, unlike English.

To muddy the waters further, many Highland place names are what the original map makers from the O.S. thought they were hearing when they asked locals. Like you, they didn’t know the language, so in a good example of cultural imperialism, they just made it fit their own language. Occasionally the locals slipped in a bit of piss-taking as well, involving naming things after penises and suchlike (or should that be penes, as technically penis is Latin   ). It’s probably worse in Ireland too - according to a man I spoke to in Dingle, the English surveyors were despised. 

Edited November 6, 2018 by The Mantis

[GordonS]

10 minutes ago, The Mantis said:

It’s not though. In isolation the word ‘suidhe’ would be roughly ‘soo-ye’. In conjunction with the ‘t-‘ it is an example of what’s called ‘elision’ which happens in many languages, even English, which means letters are elided, or missed out, and is exactly as Waspie says.

The trouble with mountaineers’ Gaelic is, it’s an example of a little knowledge being a dangerous thing. If you actually learned a bit of Gaelic, and I mean a little, you’d see how the rules worked, and they’re actually consistent, unlike English.

 

The 's' is effectively silent is it not?

I did some Gaelic classes at work. Enough to remind me how shite I am at languages. Like most in Britain in the past 40 years I wasn't taught English properly (wait, there are more than three tenses?) so I struggle as soon as I hit verbs. I remember in French at school, the teacher saying "now we're going to do the perfect tense" and I had literally no idea what that was until years later, long after I'd left school.

[invergowrie arab]

14 minutes ago, The Mantis said:

It’s not though. In isolation the word ‘suidhe’ would be roughly ‘soo-ye’. In conjunction with the ‘t-‘ it is an example of what’s called ‘elision’ which happens in many languages, even English, which means letters are elided, or missed out, and is exactly as Waspie says.

The trouble with mountaineers’ Gaelic is, it’s an example of a little knowledge being a dangerous thing. If you actually learned a bit of Gaelic, and I mean a little, you’d see how the rules worked, and they’re actually consistent, unlike English.

To muddy the waters further, many Highland place names are what the original map makers from the O.S. thought they were hearing when they asked locals. Like you, they didn’t know the language, so in a good example of cultural imperialism, they just made it fit their own language. Occasionally the locals slipped in a bit of piss-taking as well, involving naming things after penises and suchlike (or should that be penes, as technically penis is Latin   ). It’s probably worse in Ireland too - according to a man I spoke to in Dingle, the English surveyors were despised. 

TBF I think the OS surveyors were pretty meticulous and most stuff north of the boundary fault seems OK to me. Today they certainly make every effort to apply modern orthographic conventions and spelling - sometimes to the detriment of regional variation.

It would be usual for them to speak to bilingual educated people such ministersor doctors rather than a local farmer about natural features.

Where the difficulties are is where lowlanders did have a little knowledge of the area eg settlements, and that is where their own variations became standard. That said you can look at maps through the years and get a dozen different spellings of lowland settlements too.

Mapping a Nation is an excellent book on the history of the OS.

[Waspie]

1 hour ago, invergowrie arab said:

Seadh. Ged-thà, tha an fior-cheist againn an canas iad bainne no benye no boinye? 

Tha mi a' smaointinn gur e bainne a bhiodh aca! Tha sgeulachd ann, is tha mi an amharas gur e goraich a th' ann, ach gum biodh daoine a sgirean eile a' magadh air muinntir Loch Abair a thaobh mar a chanadh iad l, le bhith ag radh "tha lagh gu math lag aig MacLachlainn, is 's ann nas laige is nas laige a tha e a' fas a h-uile latha".  Chanainn gur e rudeigin mar Myow in two ey a bhiodh aca air an rud eile. 

Anyway, back to football. Tha sgioba a' Ghearasdain gun fheum. 

[The Mantis]

16 minutes ago, GordonS said:

The 's' is effectively silent is it not?

I did some Gaelic classes at work. Enough to remind me how shite I am at languages. Like most in Britain in the past 40 years I wasn't taught English properly (wait, there are more than three tenses?) so I struggle as soon as I hit verbs. I remember in French at school, the teacher saying "now we're going to do the perfect tense" and I had literally no idea what that was until years later, long after I'd left school.

Life’s like that. Youth is wasted on the young. I found maths remarkably easy without really enjoying it, but was kind of pushed in that direction by others, and drifted into teaching it although I was probably a bit sloppy and not nearly rigorous enough. But I also did French and Latin up to Higher and enjoyed them. My missus is a native Gaelic speaker so I’ve done a learners’ ‘O’ Grade.

Edited November 6, 2018 by The Mantis

[The Mantis]

1 hour ago, invergowrie arab said:

TBF I think the OS surveyors were pretty meticulous and most stuff north of the boundary fault seems OK to me. Today they certainly make every effort to apply modern orthographic conventions and spelling - sometimes to the detriment of regional variation.

It would be usual for them to speak to bilingual educated people such ministersor doctors rather than a local farmer about natural features.

Tha mi a 'smaoineachadh gu bheil thu ceart.  Ach tha mo sgeul nas fheàrr 

[invergowrie arab]

1 hour ago, Waspie said:

Tha mi a' smaointinn gur e bainne a bhiodh aca! Tha sgeulachd ann, is tha mi an amharas gur e goraich a th' ann, ach gum biodh daoine a sgirean eile a' magadh air muinntir Loch Abair a thaobh mar a chanadh iad l, le bhith ag radh "tha lagh gu math lag aig MacLachlainn, is 's ann nas laige is nas laige a tha e a' fas a h-uile latha".  Chanainn gur e rudeigin mar Myow in two ey a bhiodh aca air an rud eile. 

Anyway, back to football. Tha sgioba a' Ghearasdain gun fheum. 

Tapadh leatsa

Bha e glè inntinneach. Chuala mise gun robh "w" Èireannach aca.

Thuirt mi nach dèan na muinntir Shiorrachd Pheairt stràc no faclan fada. Thuirt sinn dìreach"ban".

[invergowrie arab]

24 minutes ago, The Mantis said:

Tha mi a 'smaoineachadh gu bheil thu ceart.  Ach tha mo sgeul nas fheàrr 

O bha e.

Ged-thà, cha smaoinich mi gum feum na Ciarraighich leisgeul sam bith a bhith a' fuathachadh na Brits !!

Edited November 6, 2018 by invergowrie arab