Project Brave rumbles on..

[7-2]

Congratulations on highlighting that you get caps just because you play for one of the bigot brothers.

[Crilly]

As far as I know, it was proposed to increase the number of elite academies to 10 or 11.  Why else would clubs like Well, Partick and Killie all be preparing to apply?  What happens if say 13 or 14 clubs meet the criteria?

[Jim McLean's Ghost]

49 minutes ago, Crilly said:

As far as I know, it was proposed to increase the number of elite academies to 10 or 11.  Why else would clubs like Well, Partick and Killie all be preparing to apply?  What happens if say 13 or 14 clubs meet the criteria?

The original plan was 8 elite academies and anyone could apply but funnily enough 8 clubs wrote the rules so it was essentially a stitch up.

Then there was a debate about how many clubs should be part of the system and 16 was thrown around and what the criteria should be. The outcome of that is now the SFA propose even stricter conditions on Elite Academies that only the biggest clubs would be able to attain, locking everyone else out and keeping the funding amongst themselves.

[happyaccie]

4 hours ago, Tartantony said:

 

Off the top of my head I can think of the following who came through our academy and played for our first team.

*international cap

Marshall*
Mulgrew*
Odea*
Kennedy*
McManus*
Caddis*
Ralston
Fisher
Tierney*
Maloney*
Mcgeady*
Henderson
Miller*
McGeouch
Irvine*
McGregor
Forrest*
Wallace*
Burchill*
Watt*
Smith*
Beattie*

Others that didn't play for us but being current internationalists include McGovern, Robertson and Bannan and thats not including the countless players in Scotland who have had a decent career.

I think you are being exceptionally harsh on Celtic. Our youth programme does pretty well, it may not always produce amazing first team players but we provide a good amount of players that make it as a pro elsewhere.

Last season during our invincible domestic season we fielded 10 academy players. 6 this season so far with 4 appearing in the CL.
 

 

Don't think I am being harsh at all , can you recall a game that your club has stripped 6  youth development products for a league game . My club through financial necessity have had to do this regularly over the last 10 years or so, and in a previous post on this thread you said project brave was a good idea, you are seriously misled if you think clubs benefit from the cast offs of Celtic or sevco, I personally prefer seeing our home grown talent given a chance rather than a reject from any of the 5 elitist clubs this project favours . The SFA need to bin these proposals and treat all its member clubs with the equality they deserve , if the SFA keep pandering to the desires of its " elitist" clubs it will be to the detriment of the game in Scotland in the long term.

[coprolite]

Sort of.
They've drawn up criteria that needs to be met in order to be awarded "Elite" status. For example, you need 6 full time staff, you need certain dedicated positions filled such as Sports Science etc. There are also performance criteria to be met for example there's a co-efficient score based on the number of youth players you've got out on loan etc. That was a point of contention for Motherwell who had players around their first team squad but weren't benefitting in the same way as say, Aberdeen, were as they just loaned all their youth players out and were getting minutes in the lower leagues.
All of that, particularly the infrastructure and staffing stuff, costs money so there's an element of natural selection there. Equally though if you want to grade something and set a bar for standards then you need criteria to meet. That's fine.
However the main objection, which may or may not have been resolved, was that the original Project Brave planned to limit the "Elite" academies to 6 (I think) and clubs would be invited to tender applications which would *of course* be awarded on merit (*massive side-eye*). In that situation if you weren't successful in your application then, regardless of whether you met the criteria or not, you wouldn't qualify for "Elite" status and that would be that. No matter which way you slice it, that seems unfair in this context.
You've got clubs like, for example, Motherwell who have made youth development the foundation of their business plan; Youth Cup winners in 2015/16, semi-finalists in 16/17, 5th in the Development league last season, 6th the season before and currently sitting 2nd in the league with a clear pathway from Academy to first team. At present Motherwell have representation at every national Youth age group from u21s down.  There's also a historic track record of developing players through the Academy/youth team system; currently Cadden, Campbell going back through Ben Hall, Lee Erwin (who between them brought in the best part of £750k to the club in fees) to Jamie Murphy, back to McFadden, Pearson, Hammell, McCulloch and even going back as far as the likes of Boyd, McCart and O'Donnell. The next in line will be Turnbull, Hastie and Semple with players lined up in the system beyond that.
So, going by the original plan, regardless of all that Motherwell's application could be overlooked purely because there's an arbitrary number of "Elite" slots available. Even if Motherwell met all the staffing and infrastructure requirements then their application could simply be overlooked in favour of Aberdeen, Celtic, Rangers, Hearts, Hibs +1 getting the "Elite" places. Same goes for Thistle who have massive investment in the Thistle Weir Academy but who possibly don't have the KPI co-efficient in their favour. They're literally building a new training complex yet they could conceivably be frozen out of being awarded "Elite" status.

The authorities have history for setting arbitrary qualifying criteria to maintain the status quo. 10,000 seats.

Each club should have an equal contribution towards a budget for u18s and be allowed to spend it however they want. Central planning is doomed to fail.

The only training facility kids need is time and motivation. Sports science is great but is expensive and can wait until they've mastered the skills.

[SilverWolfe]

Don't think I am being harsh at all , can you recall a game that your club has stripped 6  youth development products for a league game . My club through financial necessity have had to do this regularly over the last 10 years or so, and in a previous post on this thread you said project brave was a good idea, you are seriously misled if you think clubs benefit from the cast offs of Celtic or sevco, I personally prefer seeing our home grown talent given a chance rather than a reject from any of the 5 elitist clubs this project favours . The SFA need to bin these proposals and treat all its member clubs with the equality they deserve , if the SFA keep pandering to the desires of its " elitist" clubs it will be to the detriment of the game in Scotland in the long term.

 

Well yes we have stripped 6 of our own products this season. 4 of them have also played CL football so I'm quite happy with how we are doing.

 

I should say that I wasn't agreeing with the plans in my comment earlier, just more making a point that it may not be as bad as suggested on here. Trying to fuel a bit of discussion rather than writing it off. I don't know enough about it yet to form an opinion for or against it.

 

[thisal]

11 hours ago, Tartantony said:

 

Off the top of my head I can think of the following who came through our academy and played for our first team.

*international cap

Marshall*
Mulgrew*
Odea*
Kennedy*
McManus*
Caddis*
Ralston
Fisher
Tierney*
Maloney*
Mcgeady*
Henderson
Miller*
McGeouch
Irvine*
McGregor
Forrest*
Wallace*
Burchill*
Watt*
Smith*
Beattie*

Others that didn't play for us but being current internationalists include McGovern, Robertson and Bannan and thats not including the countless players in Scotland who have had a decent career.

I think you are being exceptionally harsh on Celtic. Our youth programme does pretty well, it may not always produce amazing first team players but we provide a good amount of players that make it as a pro elsewhere.

Last season during our invincible domestic season we fielded 10 academy players. 6 this season so far with 4 appearing in the CL.
 

 

 Celtic and Rangers get to pick the best u16 players but they are not producing the best Scottish players. Celtics 3 best  Scottish players from last season came through other clubs youth system. Brown at Hibs Armstrong at united and Griffiths at Livvy. also to claim any credit for Robertson is laughable he had to leave to develop his career. Rangers had the perfect opportunity to develop young players over the last 5 years and have failed miserably. The fact is the OF have failed  to develop the talent they get at youth level.  

When the players on that list signed for Celtic they were the best in Scotland. Are they still?

[williemillersmoustache]

f**k Project Colt Teams.

[oneteaminglasgow]

13 hours ago, Tartantony said:

Watt*

 

As in Tony? As in the Tony Watt who'd played half a season at Airdrie before signing for Celtic? 

[cmontheloknow]

19 minutes ago, oneteaminglasgow said:

As in Tony? As in the Tony Watt who'd played half a season at Airdrie before signing for Celtic? 

With Airdrie a year before that - and came through amateur boys club system in Lanarkshire.

[SilverWolfe]

 Celtic and Rangers get to pick the best u16 players but they are not producing the best Scottish players. Celtics 3 best  Scottish players from last season came through other clubs youth system. Brown at Hibs Armstrong at united and Griffiths at Livvy. also to claim any credit for Robertson is laughable he had to leave to develop his career. Rangers had the perfect opportunity to develop young players over the last 5 years and have failed miserably. The fact is the OF have failed  to develop the talent they get at youth level.  
When the players on that list signed for Celtic they were the best in Scotland. Are they still?

I would argue that McGregor and Tierney are up there with the best in Scotland as well as the 3 you mention. Forrest has a good record for us even though most think hes shite. We also have a few coming through now and a few more in the next few years who might step up.

I dont see any issue with us buying the best young Scottish players. The players want to move to bigger clubs and we want the best Scottish players in our team. It's no different to the likes of Aberdeen, Hearts, Hibs and Utd buying the better players from clubs smaller than them or English teams buying our players after we've developed them. That's just football unfortunately.

[SilverWolfe]

As in Tony? As in the Tony Watt who'd played half a season at Airdrie before signing for Celtic? 

Yeah fair enough

[gannonball]

9 hours ago, happyaccie said:

Don't think I am being harsh at all , can you recall a game that your club has stripped 6  youth development products for a league game . My club through financial necessity have had to do this regularly over the last 10 years or so, and in a previous post on this thread you said project brave was a good idea, you are seriously misled if you think clubs benefit from the cast offs of Celtic or sevco, I personally prefer seeing our home grown talent given a chance rather than a reject from any of the 5 elitist clubs this project favours . The SFA need to bin these proposals and treat all its member clubs with the equality they deserve , if the SFA keep pandering to the desires of its " elitist" clubs it will be to the detriment of the game in Scotland in the long term.

Your not being harsh, you are just talking out your arse saying Celtic haven't developed much players for the first team given our significant higher standard.  I do not agree with the elite proposal either though.

[Dunning1874]

For a start, as VT says, we shouldn't be overhauling how clubs operate in order to help the national team anyway. Changes to improve the national team are all well and good in their own right but it shouldn't be done if it's damaging to the domestic game, which this undoubtedly is to all but the chosen few. However, even if it wasn't the case that this is going to be an absolute disaster for the vast majority of clubs in the country, there's no reason to believe it's going to produce better players for the national team either.

Probably Scotland's best player in the latest campaign was Andy Robertson. Robertson was released by Celtic at the age of 15 for being too small, while they retained such esteemed talents as Joe Chalmers. After his release he was picked up by Queen's Park youth set-up and progressed to the first team, impressing immediately and getting a move to Dundee United to after just one season. There he established himself as one of the best players in the country and yet again he was getting a big move after just one season, moving for about £3 million at the age of 20. Three years later, he's to Liverpool for £8 million.

In the brave new world the SFA envisage, what would have happened to 15 year old Andy Robertson when Celtic punted him? If they get their way, Queen's Park won't have a youth system left to pick him up: no lower league clubs will have youth systems worthy of the name. Unless the other chosen clubs decide it's worth taking a shot on Celtic cast offs at that age, 15 year old Andy Robertson would have nowhere to go. He'd simply fall out of football altogether. In Project Brave, if you're declared not good enough at 16, you'll get no chance to prove otherwise and play your way back up, and you'll simply never become a professional footballer. If you're a late developer and don't start to show your true quality until you're 19/20 rather than 16/17, you'll never get the chance to show it, you'll be punted at 17 and you'll never make it in professional football.

This brings us back to the point of it not just ruining the national team, but our entire league setup as well. Clubs like St. Mirren and Livingston are no longer going to be able to afford their own youth systems and can't produce players themselves - so you're cutting off the youth setups that supplied players like Robert Snodgrass, Leigh Griffiths and John McGinn to the national team. However, you're also cutting the number of players in youth football across the board, meaning there are fewer players available to pick up as well. It's not just players who could be good enough to play for Scotland who'll fall through the gaps and leave the game either, it's solid players throughout the leagues. When Lewis Morgan was punted by Rangers he wasn't ready for first team football yet, but St Mirren had a youth system of their own and could snap him up before he was ready, now he's had time to develop and he's winning man of the match awards every other week. When Jai Quitongo was released by Aberdeen he was nowhere near ready for playing in the Championship, but Morton took him into their youth system and later were in a position to reject six figure transfer fees for him.

When the youth structure is forcibly torn away from these clubs, you're also tearing away the safety net for players like Quitongo and Morgan to stay in the game, a net that's caught future international players like Paul Hartley or solid top flight players like Chris Millar in the past. Players are going to fall out of the game entirely and over time it's going to absolutely destroy the lower leagues in this country. A cynic might suggest that's exactly what the plan is: cut the lower league clubs out and replace them with youth teams of the chosen few.

The reality is that while we're told we have to put self-interest to one side and support this for the good of the game, it has absolutely nothing to do with the good of the game.  Project Brave is the self-interested carve up which will destroy the game for the sake of a few clubs.

[RandomGuy.]

Nailed it.

[happyaccie]

Just now, gannonball said:

Your not being harsh, you are just talking out your arse saying Celtic haven't developed much players for the first team given our significant higher standard.  I do not agree with the elite proposal either though.

You have just highlighted why this project is an ill thought out initiative Celtic  with the clubs undoubted financial strength against all other clubs in Scotland should be able to produce players of better quality on a more regular basis, why this is not the case should be of concern to Celtic fans, it kind of infers that the coaching staff / programme they employ is not as fruitful as smaller clubs, why else would you have to go to other clubs in Scotland to sign their developed talents , I'm using Armstrong from Dundee United as an example if the youth set up at  Celtic was anywhere near the level it should be due to investment levels available there would be no need for them to acquire the services of young Scottish talent via the transfer market , these players should if you're development programme was successful be rolling off the lennoxtown production line, alas it isn't which makes me question the quality of youth development at Celtic Football Club.

[NYD1997]

Also last season the 2 leagues which are ran by the SFA/SPFL the U17's and the U20's were won by Saints and Ross County respectively, and if I am correct, the Ross County team was filled with 18/19 year olds brought up through their own system.  Both teams would be out of the project brave loop. So if when the u17's win the league any of the "big 5" could come in and take any player with a lower transfer/development fee because they are better than what they have. How is that in any way fair? 

[thisal]

1 hour ago, Tartantony said:

 

I would argue that McGregor and Tierney are up there with the best in Scotland as well as the 3 you mention. Forrest has a good record for us even though most think hes shite. We also have a few coming through now and a few more in the next few years who might step up.

I dont see any issue with us buying the best young Scottish players. The players want to move to bigger clubs and we want the best Scottish players in our team. It's no different to the likes of Aberdeen, Hearts, Hibs and Utd buying the better players from clubs smaller than them or English teams buying our players after we've developed them. That's just football unfortunately.
 

 

I don't have any problem with Celtic picking the best available  to them. I'm just pointing out that with first choice of players and coaches  and the facilities available they should be producing a higher quality of player.  It's all very well firing out lots of semi  decent pros but surely Celtics youth system should be producing for Celtic and not lesser Premier league and Championship teams.

[SilverWolfe]

1 hour ago, happyaccie said:

You have just highlighted why this project is an ill thought out initiative Celtic  with the clubs undoubted financial strength against all other clubs in Scotland should be able to produce players of better quality on a more regular basis, why this is not the case should be of concern to Celtic fans, it kind of infers that the coaching staff / programme they employ is not as fruitful as smaller clubs, why else would you have to go to other clubs in Scotland to sign their developed talents , I'm using Armstrong from Dundee United as an example if the youth set up at  Celtic was anywhere near the level it should be due to investment levels available there would be no need for them to acquire the services of young Scottish talent via the transfer market , these players should if you're development programme was successful be rolling off the lennoxtown production line, alas it isn't which makes me question the quality of youth development at Celtic Football Club.

In-case you have forgotten, we are currently 57 games unbeaten domestically, just won the 4th treble in our history and recently had one of our best CL results. Tierney, McGregor and Forrest have played a massive part in that. Liam Henderson (a Scottish Cup winner), Ralston, Miller, Johnston and Aitcheson have all contributed along the way.  Considering Lennoxtown only opened its doors 10 years ago, I honestly can say that I am delighted with our youth programme. I have no worries at all about the sort of players we will be producing over the next decade or two.

Fair enough, you all hate the OF and I understand that  but at least try to be objective. Maybe have a read at Dunning's excellent post above which is very insightful and doesn't just go down the standard P&B route of who hates the OF more.

[1320Lichtie]

For a start, as VT says, we shouldn't be overhauling how clubs operate in order to help the national team anyway. Changes to improve the national team are all well and good in their own right but it shouldn't be done if it's damaging to the domestic game, which this undoubtedly is to all but the chosen few. However, even if it wasn't the case that this is going to be an absolute disaster for the vast majority of clubs in the country, there's no reason to believe it's going to produce better players for the national team either.
Probably Scotland's best player in the latest campaign was Andy Robertson. Robertson was released by Celtic at the age of 15 for being too small, while they retained such esteemed talents as Joe Chalmers. After his release he was picked up by Queen's Park youth set-up and progressed to the first team, impressing immediately and getting a move to Dundee United to after just one season. There he established himself as one of the best players in the country and yet again he was getting a big move after just one season, moving for about £3 million at the age of 20. Three years later, he's to Liverpool for £8 million.
In the brave new world the SFA envisage, what would have happened to 15 year old Andy Robertson when Celtic punted him? If they get their way, Queen's Park won't have a youth system left to pick him up: no lower league clubs will have youth systems worthy of the name. Unless the other chosen clubs decide it's worth taking a shot on Celtic cast offs at that age, 15 year old Andy Robertson would have nowhere to go. He'd simply fall out of football altogether. In Project Brave, if you're declared not good enough at 16, you'll get no chance to prove otherwise and play your way back up, and you'll simply never become a professional footballer. If you're a late developer and don't start to show your true quality until you're 19/20 rather than 16/17, you'll never get the chance to show it, you'll be punted at 17 and you'll never make it in professional football.
This brings us back to the point of it not just ruining the national team, but our entire league setup as well. Clubs like St. Mirren and Livingston are no longer going to be able to afford their own youth systems and can't produce players themselves - so you're cutting off the youth setups that supplied players like Robert Snodgrass, Leigh Griffiths and John McGinn to the national team. However, you're also cutting the number of players in youth football across the board, meaning there are fewer players available to pick up as well. It's not just players who could be good enough to play for Scotland who'll fall through the gaps and leave the game either, it's solid players throughout the leagues. When Lewis Morgan was punted by Rangers he wasn't ready for first team football yet, but St Mirren had a youth system of their own and could snap him up before he was ready, now he's had time to develop and he's winning man of the match awards every other week. When Jai Quitongo was released by Aberdeen he was nowhere near ready for playing in the Championship, but Morton took him into their youth system and later were in a position to reject six figure transfer fees for him.
When the youth structure is forcibly torn away from these clubs, you're also tearing away the safety net for players like Quitongo and Morgan to stay in the game, a net that's caught future international players like Paul Hartley or solid top flight players like Chris Millar in the past. Players are going to fall out of the game entirely and over time it's going to absolutely destroy the lower leagues in this country. A cynic might suggest that's exactly what the plan is: cut the lower league clubs out and replace them with youth teams of the chosen few.
The reality is that while we're told we have to put self-interest to one side and support this for the good of the game, it has absolutely nothing to do with the good of the game.  Project Brave is the self-interested carve up which will destroy the game for the sake of a few clubs.

Send this to someone. Get it in the papers. Get it infront of the jokers at the SFA. These are all concerns and things that have crossed my mind excellently put into an article.

Get the terrace boys looking at it, they've contacts/work at the SFA/Scotsman don't they. Millar at the Sun.

This whole thing is so stupid and full of so many flaws it's absolutely amazing it could even be taken seriously never mind reached the stage it has.