Catalonia

[BawWatchin]

1 minute ago, welshbairn said:

By taking part they would be promoting the idea that the Spanish Constitution which was voted for by a massive majority in Catalonia has no weight in Catalonia anymore.

Was it voted for by a massive majority in Catalonia? What about the people that didn't bothered turning out to vote on that?

[welshbairn]

1 minute ago, BawWatchin said:

Was it voted for by a massive majority in Catalonia? What about the people that didn't bothered turning out to vote on that?

68% turnout, 95% in favour. And it was a legal poll.

[Tibbermoresaint]

4 minutes ago, welshbairn said:

By taking part they would be acknowledging that the Spanish Constitution which was voted for by a massive majority in Catalonia has no weight in Catalonia anymore.

And by not taking part all they've achieved is delivering a result indicating the majority of people in Catalonia don't want the Spanish constitution to have any weight in Catalonia.

[welshbairn]

2 minutes ago, Tibbermoresaint said:

And by not taking part all they've achieved is delivering a result indicating the majority of people in Catalonia don't want the Spanish constitution to have any weight in Catalonia.

Not with a 42% turnout from one side only.

[Tibbermoresaint]

2 minutes ago, welshbairn said:

Not with a 42% turnout from one side only.

[Tibbermoresaint]

6 minutes ago, welshbairn said:

68% turnout, 95% in favour. And it was a legal poll.

When was this?

[welshbairn]

1 minute ago, Tibbermoresaint said:

When was this?

1978.

[Tibbermoresaint]

1 minute ago, welshbairn said:

1978.

Don't tell anyone but it isn't 1978 any more. 

[Granny Danger]

6 hours ago, welshbairn said:

There's no evidence of a majority wanting Catalan independence, if there were I'd probably support it but otherwise I'd happily support the majority view. Although there's something a bit queasy about the richest part of a country wanting to split off to avoid subsidising the poorer parts, like Northern Italy. Until recently the main pro independence parties were solidly right wing and supported by local business leaders. 

That was argued before the Scottish Independence Referendum but it was right to have it.

There’s one way to put it to the test.

[DiegoDiego]

There's no evidence of a majority wanting Catalan independence, if there were I'd probably support it but otherwise I'd happily support the majority view. Although there's something a bit queasy about the richest part of a country wanting to split off to avoid subsidising the poorer parts, like Northern Italy. Until recently the main pro independence parties were solidly right wing and supported by local business leaders. 

To be fair, Veneto has pretty strong historical and cultural reasons to want independence. In terms of GDP per capita they're only something like the seventh richest region in Italy.

[welshbairn]

4 minutes ago, DiegoDiego said:

7 hours ago, welshbairn said:

There's no evidence of a majority wanting Catalan independence, if there were I'd probably support it but otherwise I'd happily support the majority view. Although there's something a bit queasy about the richest part of a country wanting to split off to avoid subsidising the poorer parts, like Northern Italy. Until recently the main pro independence parties were solidly right wing and supported by local business leaders. 

To be fair, Veneto has pretty strong historical and cultural reasons to want independence. In terms of GDP per capita they're only something like the seventh richest region in Italy.

I thought Lega Nord were a bit more ambitious than that, in the past anyway. Padania rings a bell.

[tirso]

On 2/14/2019 at 13:05, welshbairn said:

68% turnout, 95% in favour. And it was a legal poll.

I can assure you my family over there did not vote for that specific clause.   There was no option but to vote that through and it was a long time ago in a different context.  Totally disingenuous this.

[tirso]

I actually came onto pie and bovril when this all kicked off because it was annoying me reading the stuff about right wing nationalist Catalans ripping off the poor.  Can see the same old crap arguments being played out.  It's completely false.  Listen to Junqueras', far from a nazi.  The man is in jail for doing what he sincerely believed was the correct thing to do.  I understand it is a nuanced topic but when one side puts the other in jail instead of talking there's a problem.  

More people voted for independence than mandated Brexit in this country.  I don't know if there's a majority or not.  It's probably extremely close either way.  

 

[DeeTillEhDeh]

An illegal poll boycotted by people in favour of staying part of Spain.

It would have needed a turnout of 80+% and every extra vote that didn't vote to vote against independence just to draw level. 

If there had not been a boycott they would have still voted for independence.

 

 

 

[welshbairn]

6 minutes ago, tirso said:

I actually came onto pie and bovril when this all kicked off because it was annoying me reading the stuff about right wing nationalist Catalans ripping off the poor.  Can see the same old crap arguments being played out.  It's completely false.  Listen to Junqueras', far from a nazi.  The man is in jail for doing what he sincerely believed was the correct thing to do.  I understand it is a nuanced topic but when one side puts the other in jail instead of talking there's a problem.  

More people voted for independence than mandated Brexit in this country.  I don't know if there's a majority or not.  It's probably extremely close either way.  

 

I know they're a mixed bunch of left and right, but they've probably just handed power in Madrid to the Right and Very Far Right by voting down the budget and forcing an election.

[tirso]

12 minutes ago, welshbairn said:

I know they're a mixed bunch of left and right, but they've probably just handed power in Madrid to the Right and Very Far Right by voting down the budget and forcing an election.

And?  So they're nazis?  what is your point?

It's not in their interest to have the right in power.  Maybe their leaders are literally in jail which puts propping others up a little difficult.

[welshbairn]

11 minutes ago, tirso said:

And?  So they're nazis?  what is your point?

It's not in their interest to have the right in power.  Maybe their leaders are literally in jail which puts propping others up a little difficult.

It was unbelievably stupid for Madrid to massively overreact to the poll when they could have just ignored it. And these show trials look like something Stalin could have come up with. It's just a bit ironic that the Catalan parties are putting the far right VOX private prosecutor in power who is this very moment interrogating their leaders.

[tirso]

2 minutes ago, welshbairn said:

It was unbelievably stupid for Madrid to massively overreact to the poll when they could have just ignored it. And these show trials look like something Stalin could have come up with. It's just a bit ironic that the Catalan parties are putting the far right VOX private prosecutor in power who is this very moment interrogating their leaders.

I think it's extremely unlikely Vox with 10% of the vote are going to be in power somehow but thanks for the sanity prevailing through nonetheless.   It's also ironic a lot of your points on this thread wouldn't be out of place on a Vox pamphlet on Catalan issues.

 

[welshbairn]

2 minutes ago, tirso said:

I think it's extremely unlikely Vox with 10% of the vote are going to be in power somehow but thanks for the sanity prevailing through nonetheless.   It's also ironic a lot of your points on this thread wouldn't be out of place on a Vox pamphlet on Catalan issues.

 

Quote

The overall majority line in the Spanish Congress is 44 percent . Polls show no party alone is anywhere near that. Looking at the latest 10-poll averages, the PSOE is at 23.7 percent, the PP at 21.0 percent, Ciudadanos at 19.4 percent , Podemos is down to 14.9 percent, and Vox up to 10.7 percent. In terms of possible coalitions, the left-wing PSOE-Podemos option has dropped to 38.6 percent, the left-centre PSOE-Ciudadanos option is down to 43.1 percent, and an old-school PP-PSOE is at 44.8 percent. The current highest score goes to the right-wing triple PP-Ciudadanos-Vox alliance at 51.2 percent.

https://www.thelocal.es/20190215/analysis-snchez-gives-up-and-plunges-spain-into-third-divisive-general-election-in-three-years

[tirso]

https://www.thelocal.es/20190215/analysis-snchez-gives-up-and-plunges-spain-into-third-divisive-general-election-in-three-years

I'm very aware of that. Doesn't mean they are in power.