Catalonia

[ayrmad]

41 minutes ago, tirso said:

Out of interest what do you suggest people who want the right to decide do to democratically have this happen?

In my reading he's done the only thing he could do.  I don't castigate him for it.  He pushed for a vote to allow people to make a decision after voting through a law.  It's not like they just did this out of the blue.  When you are met with a brick wall what do you suggest.

Eat your cereal.

[Baxter Parp]

3 minutes ago, Savage Henry said:

Please don’t use Wikipedia as a source.

"Please don't inconvenience my ignorance."  Wikipedia is as good as anything else.

 

4 minutes ago, Savage Henry said:

However, none of that equates to state formation.

It clearly does.

[Savage Henry]

Okay well as a Catalan I find the first sentence hard to digest.   But fair enough if it is your opinion.  I do not believe when a large majority of a people simply want to express their view it should be stopped by a larger state.  Not all peoples have a right to decide.  A city or a street doesn't but it's obvious when a people do.  

I still don't know what you think they should do to get a legal vote.  It seems regardless of anything they could do themselves you think their rights should be decided by Madrid and people in Europe with a shallow understanding of the situation and that's it.

 

 

 

Maybe I should clarify. There are formal machinations for self-determination. There are formal machinations for establishing a route to self-determination. States are not formed because public opinion is “obvious”.

 

I don’t regard the Catalan cause as being in any way related to progressive self-determination. I see it is as insular nationalism. But if that’s the will of the people, then so be it. That’s simply my opinion, and neither here nor there.

 

But the means to expressing that will comes through existing machinations and laws. It has to come through the international system. A group of people, however small or large, cannot simply declare independence and form a country. It has to be established through the international system which, of course, is designed to stop this happening.

 

If the Catalans declare independence, and the international system fails to recognise it, then it is not independent. That’s what I mean by “Catalans don’t have the right.”

 

EDIT: look at the Scottish referendum. That’s precisely how you establish the democratic route to independence.

[NotThePars]

Who's going to enforce the UN's doctrines on self-determination?

[John Lambies Doos]

By jumping into statements like “we’ve already written a Declaration of Independence” on the basis of what was a very flimsy referendum, he’s actually prevented the chances of state support at any time .

Exactly what Republic of Ireland did mate, without a referendum

[welshbairn]

Who's going to enforce the UN's doctrines on self-determination?

Nobody. They were written at the time of decolonisation and even then independence was only gained by rebellion or with the agreement of the colonial power. A right to self determination is a meaningless concept, its all about what you can gain by force and/or negotiation.

[topcat(The most tip top)]

Essentially they're offering Madrid the chance to go double or quits by holding a regular referendum

Edited October 11, 2017 by topcat(The most tip top)

[tirso]

19 minutes ago, Savage Henry said:

 

Maybe I should clarify. There are formal machinations for self-determination. There are formal machinations for establishing a route to self-determination. States are not formed because public opinion is “obvious”.

I don’t regard the Catalan cause as being in any way related to progressive self-determination. I see it is as insular nationalism. But if that’s the will of the people, then so be it. That’s simply my opinion, and neither here nor there.

But the means to expressing that will comes through existing machinations and laws. It has to come through the international system. A group of people, however small or large, cannot simply declare independence and form a country. It has to be established through the international system which, of course, is designed to stop this happening.

If the Catalans declare independence, and the international system fails to recognise it, then it is not independent. That’s what I mean by “Catalans don’t have the right.”

 

I'm not saying states are formed because the situation is obvious.  I'm saying it's obvious when a people have the right to decide.

Own national culture, clear border showing geographical limit, clear mandate from the peoples of a critical mass.  Are you saying Catatonia has none of these things and their right of self determination is entirely the gift of the larger party?  Have never read any law which states that.  I suggest international law is only around for when it suits whatever party it suits.  Political will seems more important but that's another issue. 

Hiding behind a state-created law written specifically to hinder a minority is not a good law in my view and should lack international competence. 

The people have voted democratically in an election and their parliament voted a law through by majority that a referendum on determination will happen.  Puigdemont has asked for dialogue since the very beginning and was asking for mediation since before and after Sunday.  He's asked still for mediation.  I still wonder what you want them to do.  Spain has just shouted illegal and that there will be no talks.  But you think Spain are right.  I love Spain by the way.

The cause as you put it has it's merits and demerits.  I wouldn't transcribe an individuals world view on it.  We can't even get past the right of a people to decide yet.  

 

 

 

 

 

Edited October 11, 2017 by tirso

[LongTimeLurker]

1 minute ago, John Lambies Doos said:

 

Exactly what Republic of Ireland did mate, without a referendum

Not sure what you are referring to? The RoI as currently constituted only emerged in 1948. Are you referring to what happened after the 1918 General Election when some of the MPs elected for Irish constituencies declared that they were forming a parliament of their own rather than going to Westminster. That scenario was a wee bit different from the Catalan one. Think Kosovo is the best recent analogy for Catalonia and it's no accident that Spain never recognised Kosovan independence as they knew what it would set the precedent for.

[tirso]

5 minutes ago, LongTimeLurker said:

Not sure what you are referring to? The RoI as currently constituted only emerged in 1948. Are you referring to what happened after the 1918 General Election when some of the MPs elected for Irish constituencies declared that they were forming a parliament of their own rather than going to Westminster. That scenario was a wee bit different from the Catalan one. Think Kosovo is the best recent analogy for Catalonia and it's no accident that Spain never recognised Kosovan independence as they knew what it would set the precedent for.

correct.  People back in Catalonia, everyone is talking about Slovenia.

By the way, when you think about it practically no country has really done the Scottish way of doing things.  Like completely by the book*.  *

*A book that changes depending on who wants what at any given time.

[Baxter Parp]

10 minutes ago, LongTimeLurker said:

Not sure what you are referring to? The RoI as currently constituted only emerged in 1948. Are you referring to what happened after the 1918 General Election when some of the MPs elected for Irish constituencies declared that they were forming a parliament of their own rather than going to Westminster. That scenario was a wee bit different from the Catalan one. Think Kosovo is the best recent analogy for Catalonia and it's no accident that Spain never recognised Kosovan independence as they knew what it would set the precedent for.

Irish history reduced to nit-picking.

[tirso]

38 minutes ago, Savage Henry said:

 

EDIT: look at the Scottish referendum. That’s precisely how you establish the democratic route to independence.

It's always the correct way when the state knows the smaller nation probably won't vote for independence.  When you have a situation where people probably will, you may find the other team doesn't want to play.  That can't just be the end of the matter.  Of course it's the best way but it can't be the only one.  And historically rarely  has been.

Pretty much everyone in catalonia, even a plurality of catalan PP voters wanted a "Scottish way".   They talk about practically nothing else.  It's what they have been asking for for years.  It's not their fault Spain refuses.

[LongTimeLurker]

Just now, Baxter Parp said:

Irish history reduced to nit-picking.

Not really. Up until 1948, the status of the 26 county statelet was that of a self-governing dominion of the Empire. That changed de facto in 1937 with the Eire constitution and it was abundantly clear during WWII that Eire was doing its own thing, but they didn't formally leave the British orbit de jure in constitutional terms until 1948. That means that before 1948, Westminster technically could have assumed direct rule again in a similar way to what happened in Newfoundland in 1934.

[MONKMAN]

Are you saying Catatonia has none of these things and their right of self determination is entirely the gift of the larger party?
 

Not really sure what Cerys Matthews has to do with any of this.

[Dunning1874]

1 hour ago, Savage Henry said:

EDIT: look at the Scottish referendum. That’s precisely how you establish the democratic route to independence.

The intransigence of the Spanish state is literally the only reason Catalonia hasn't followed the Scottish example of the referendum. They are completely unable to hold a legal and democratic referendum because the Spanish Government and Courts will not allow them to do so in any circumstances. 

With that in mind, how do you propose pro-independence Catalans proceed? Do they just hold their hands up, accept that Spanish law won't allow it because their constitution is fundamentally undemocratic and give up, or do they try every political route possible to get the Spanish Government to come to the negotiating table in order to find a legal and internationally accepted route?

The latter is clearly the only reasonable option, and it's exactly what Puigdemont is doing. Even in face of a government crackdown which invoked memories of the Guardia Civil acting as the private militia of the Falange, they're still persisting with asking for negotiations. The Catalans are the only side making any attempt at dialogue or compromise here.

[John Lambies Doos]

Not sure what you are referring to?

 

The 1916 signed declaration of independence, by Pearce, connelly et al

Aka the proclamation

 

[John Lambies Doos]

Spain imposing direct rule. UDI imminent

[topcat(The most tip top)]

 The 1916 signed declaration of independence, by Pearce, connelly et al
Aka the proclamation

Suicidal terrorists are probably not the best role models

[LongTimeLurker]

41 minutes ago, John Lambies Doos said:

The 1916 signed declaration of independence, by Pearce, connelly et al

Aka the proclamation

Think that definitely isn't relevant as Pearce and Connelly lacked an electoral mandate to justify their actions given the IPP were still dominant up to 1918. Hopefully, Puidgemont and Rajoy have figured out a formula at the urging behind the scenes of politicians from other countries that allows negotiations to take place. Looks like the last two days events were carefully choreographed. If they were going for UDI ASAP yesterday was the day it was going to happen. Instead, it's deliberately been placed in a grey area in legal terms.

Edited October 11, 2017 by LongTimeLurker

[John Lambies Doos]

Suicidal terrorists are probably not the best role models

One mans terrorist is another mans freedom fighter etc etc