Lowland Trapdoorwatch 2017-18

[Ginaro]

33 minutes ago, stanley said:

Any reason for the decline in football in the borders?

I can't see there being any borders sides left in the Lowland League in a few years time and many of them will end up out of tier six a few years after that depending on how quickly the juniors integrate.

Hawick were bottom when the EoS was last two divisions, and then finished 5th of 16 before they joined the LL with CSS. Gala and Vale have always finished in the bottom half,  same with Selkirk but they have bucked the trend this year.

Now that you have teams moving in/out of the LL on merit rather than being licensed, it's inevitable that some Borders teams will drop down. But at least they'll be playing in the east with less travelling.

[stanley]

2 minutes ago, Ginaro said:

Hawick were bottom when the EoS was last two divisions, and then finished 5th of 16 before they joined the LL with CSS. Gala and Vale have always finished in the bottom half,  same with Selkirk but they have bucked the trend this year.

Now that you have teams moving in/out of the LL on merit rather than being licensed, it's inevitable that some Borders teams will drop down. But at least they'll be playing in the east with less travelling.

It's not a recent decline but there have been times when they have been better.  Gala Fairydean, at least were a strong EoS side until the late 90s.

I suppose they don't have much chance given the smaller population and popularity of rugby.

 

[FairWeatherFan]

In terms of the Lowland League in particular, is it not perhaps that the Borders clubs have stood still while their competition has improved. When it comes to speculation about why some of the East Juniors are moving across to the EoSFL some of the blame is put on a greater difficulty in attracting the same quality of players. Lowland League clubs are now seen as vying for the same talent pool.

Some of the more central based clubs are possibly getting stronger, while the Borders clubs are still having to tap into the same market they always have.

 

[newcastle broon]

40 minutes ago, FairWeatherFan said:

In terms of the Lowland League in particular, is it not perhaps that the Borders clubs have stood still while their competition has improved. When it comes to speculation about why some of the East Juniors are moving across to the EoSFL some of the blame is put on a greater difficulty in attracting the same quality of players. Lowland League clubs are now seen as vying for the same talent pool.

Some of the more central based clubs are possibly getting stronger, while the Borders clubs are still having to tap into the same market they always have.

 

Learning from these forums in the past Borders lads have a history of preferring playing wi their mates in the amateur leagues for some reason. No sure if it's still the case these days but I'm sure yer Hawick s and Selkirk s train nowhere near their towns. Even though probably most Borders teams players are from within the Edinburgh area This certainly doesn't help Borders fitba development...... 

I could be way of the mark though. 

[Ruthrieston]

You are 100% correct a lot of Borders boys are not interested in semi pro leagues and are happy enough to play amateur football.

Also, the formation of the Lowland League has the added requirement of a better class of player and most Border teams have a high percentage of players from outwith the area to accommodate this,  mainly Edinburgh.

As the LL has matured more money has been brought into the game and it is beginning to show as certain teams have huge budgets compared to the rest, and this will only get worst as the top junior teams come into it. Nothing different to the world leagues of professional I suppose. Over the next 10 or so years I would imagine the pryamid system will lead to a few senior team casualties and a few LL teams making strides forward. In my opinion the creating of a full Scottish pyramid system will enhance the EOS League and eventually teams will find their own levels.

My only concern are teams with money behind them, but have no stadium of their own and very little supporters, a bit unfair on teams who joined the LL initially and have spent money on upgrading their stadiums.

However, that's modern life and to be honest you still get good games in the LL.

[surely not!]

The borders teams essentially won a watch at the outset of the Lowland.

Selkirk at best were a yo-yo team between the top two eos leagues- gala were mid table second and Hawick bottom of second.

Vale only team regularly in top league but even then bottom 3rd. Add in the strong SoS teams and the newcomers and they’ve done well to exist for so long.

[FairWeatherFan]

17 minutes ago, surely not! said:

The borders teams essentially won a watch at the outset of the Lowland.

Selkirk at best were a yo-yo team between the top two eos leagues- gala were mid table second and Hawick bottom of second.

Vale only team regularly in top league but even then bottom 3rd. Add in the strong SoS teams and the newcomers and they’ve done well to exist for so long.

To back that up. Looking at the final standings for of 2012/13 season you had:

Vale of Leithen - 9th in EoS Premier

Gala - 7th in EoS First

Selkirk - 9th in EoS First

Hawick - 14th in EoS First

[newcastle broon]

24 minutes ago, FairWeatherFan said:

To back that up. Looking at the final standings for of 2012/13 season you had:

Vale of Leithen - 9th in EoS Premier

Gala - 7th in EoS First

Selkirk - 9th in EoS First

Hawick - 14th in EoS First

And....

least they showed an interest to get the pyramid in place! 

Now it seems everybody wants a shot at it. If it weren't for the founder clubs  (not Hawick) we wouldn't be anywhere near where we are today so least they deserve a bit credit for "breaking away" from tradition! 

It's actually interesting that of the 1st 3 clubs licensed you only have Spartans left in the LL. Awright Threave have a chance this week but Preston are in the EoSFL now. Did these clubs lose out on the park to gain a license? 

 

 

[HibeeJibee]

Ultimately the Borders population is 120,000 compared to 510,000 in Edinburgh... 370,000 in Lothians... 370,000 in Fife... 300,000 in Central Scotland.

Not to mention there's fewer young people, rugby is unusually strong, and (at least so says the stereotype) a degree of 'parochialism' leaves some decent players happy to mix it in BAL. Only so many players of sufficient quality. Only so many fans to pay admission and companies to take sponsorship, to fund the recruitment of players from outside.


Gala have gone the nearest in recent times to establishing a "Borders Select XI" in LL and managed mid-table toward lower-mid-table finishes.

Even with more players from outside Vale have been similar, latterly lower; Selkirk generally battled at the bottom before this season; Hawick relegated.


Until the 1990s about the only clubs who could eclipse the Borders sides were Whitehill and Spartans. I'd speculate every other trophy went to Borders sides.

Since 2000 just 5 in total... Kelso and Peebles each won an EOS First Division, Selkirk an EOS Qualifying Cup, Peebles a King Cup (after LL formed) and Kelso an Alex Jack Cup.

Revive the Border Cup!

[MDM]

I'd also suggest that most borders clubs are now trying to keep things local.  In the past there was a convoy of toonies heading south to pick up their pay cheques 

[FairWeatherFan]

18 hours ago, newcastle broon said:

And....

least they showed an interest to get the pyramid in place! 

Now it seems everybody wants a shot at it. If it weren't for the founder clubs  (not Hawick) we wouldn't be anywhere near where we are today so least they deserve a bit credit for "breaking away" from tradition! 

It's actually interesting that of the 1st 3 clubs licensed you only have Spartans left in the LL. Awright Threave have a chance this week but Preston are in the EoSFL now. Did these clubs lose out on the park to gain a license? 

 

 

And...it's not intended as a criticism of the clubs. People were asking why Borders teams are in decline, and I was providing evidence to a previous post about the Borders clubs in the Lowland were on a par with their standing in the pre-pyramid EoS. 

With some of them having spent their recent years as EoS First clubs, and the Lowland right now being an improvement on the old EoS Premier. It could be argued that the teams on the field aren't under performing and are in fact better than what they were.

[stanley]

I wasn't talking about a decline since the formation of the Lowland League.  The borders clubs were, in general, weak before then and some only got into the Lowland League on the basis of having superior facilities.   I meant that there was a point far back (80s/90s perhaps) when some of the clubs, particularly Gala Fairydean, were much stronger than they are now.  Part of it might just be that there are more senior clubs now so the borders clubs have more competition.

It will be very interesting to see where all of the clubs (not just borders) end up over the next few years once the juniors get on board.  I wonder how many of the founder members of the LL will still be at that level or above in, say, ten years time.

[HibeeJibee]

There was a very marked decline: as late as 1986-87 the top 3 places in EOSL were occupied by Border clubs. Fastforward to 1996-97 and Gala were the only Border club in the EOS Premier, and thereafter several occasions occurred when a sole Border presence was only preserved by someone being promoted at the same time as someone got relegated - or a relegation reprieve coinciding.

It may partly be attributable to the formation of the EOS Premier Division and the subsequent 'south-western trio' of Annan Dalbeattie and Threave who became strong performers; Preston and Ormiston also came from the Juniors, but without such impact... However I'd say the socio-economic effect of the decline of industry and the onset of mass higher education was primary.

[HibeeJibee]

Threave Rovers 0-4 Kelty Hearts

HT saw the tie, well, tied at 0-0 but a brace of goals early in 2nd half plus another late on has promotion all but won for Kelty.


Vale's hopes, and agonies, continue as Cove-Cowdenbeath ended 0-0.

[stanton4]

On 5/3/2018 at 09:02, newcastle broon said:

And not forgetting the  -34 goal difference. The 2nd worse by a considerable margin. That's why they're 2nd bottom. Good luck to them though, don't want them dropping down. Innerleithen is a fine wee place to visit. 

Your lack of charity and camraderie  stuns me,  HJs quote was about Vale not you lot, but naw you canny  just leave it be.  WW would not have finished 2nd bottom even if they had lost the 3 points so you can stop being so fricken defensive.  Besides, finishing on the same points total as Dalbeattie, 2 behind Gala and only 5 behind another 3  clubs is hardly adrift by a considerable margin., even if the GD is awful.

Vale's precarious position is  to do with themselves. Its about losing an equaliser a couple of weeks ago while being in total control against EDU OR getting an outrageous string of injuries to defenders against Cumbernauld last week OR failing to grab a winner against Selkirk OR for that matter being subjected to a piece of refereeing  last month at East Stirling that had the refereeing supervisor commiserating with Vale supporters OR  for  turning up with nae subs on a number of occasions OR frankly, being absolute pish on a few others . It has got little to do with WW, apart I suppose, from the fact that you beat us twice and deserved neither.

And while on ''Team Sheet Gate''....seeing as you bring it up....You may have had a man in your ranks that knows the rules, but I still marvel at the natural justice of conducting an appeal against a decision by SLFL when the injured party was neither present not asked for a statement of their position.  I do wonder if we have indeed  heard then end of this business....but of course WW are safe and that is all that really matters , isn't it?

[Rab B Nesbit]

Oh dear is this what being in the hands of Cowdenbeath does to you ?  

[ekok]

Poetic

 

[stanton4]

no, its simply reading posts by ungracious cnuts

 

( although it canny help )

[Macca1875]

Your lack of charity and camraderie  stuns me,  HJs quote was about Vale not you lot, but naw you canny  just leave it be.  WW would not have finished 2nd bottom even if they had lost the 3 points so you can stop being so fricken defensive.  Besides, finishing on the same points total as Dalbeattie, 2 behind Gala and only 5 behind another 3  clubs is hardly adrift by a considerable margin., even if the GD is awful.
Vale's precarious position is  to do with themselves. Its about losing an equaliser a couple of weeks ago while being in total control against EDU OR getting an outrageous string of injuries to defenders against Cumbernauld last week OR failing to grab a winner against Selkirk OR for that matter being subjected to a piece of refereeing  last month at East Stirling that had the refereeing supervisor commiserating with Vale supporters OR  for  turning up with nae subs on a number of occasions OR frankly, being absolute pish on a few others . It has got little to do with WW, apart I suppose, from the fact that you beat us twice and deserved neither.
And while on ''Team Sheet Gate''....seeing as you bring it up....You may have had a man in your ranks that knows the rules, but I still marvel at the natural justice of conducting an appeal against a decision by SLFL when the injured party was neither present not asked for a statement of their position.  I do wonder if we have indeed  heard then end of this business....but of course WW are safe and that is all that really matters , isn't it?

League rules & conditions can be found online.

Whitehill Welfare were punished accordingly to the rules & correctly so, but only after an appeal.

Really hope that the Vale get the result they need from Cowdenbeath, as it is a great wee club & would be a sad loss.

[magoo]

Stanton is at some level of anger