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bluedragon

Junior Internationals – questions, help, clarification, etc.

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30 minutes ago, thor163 said:

I PLAYED FOR SJFA V LANARK UTD 1970S I HAVE TEAMSHEET IF YOU WANT A COPY I CAN LOOKOUT IF YOU WANT

Thank you,  That would be great as although we have the match listed as being played on 17 June 1970 we have no  other details , i.e. teams, score, etc.  at all. 

Edited by bluedragon

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ROBERT WATSON ADROSSAN,JOHN THORBURN PENICUIK,JAMES SINCLAIR YOKER,WILLIAM HUME PENICUIK,KENNETH McKINDER CARLUKE,ALAN McNAB YOKER,MALCOM ROBERTSON PENICUIK,DANIEL McGRAIN BLANTYRE VICS,KIRKWOOD LAWSON BLANTYRE VICS,IAN WOODECKI BONESS,SAMUEL MURRAY HURLFORD. 1 to 11

SUB PLAYER JOHN THOMSON BLANTYRE VICS

SUB GK IAN HAY IRVINE MEADOW

TRAINER W MITCHELL HURLFORD

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37 minutes ago, thor163 said:

ROBERT WATSON ADROSSAN,JOHN THORBURN PENICUIK,JAMES SINCLAIR YOKER,WILLIAM HUME PENICUIK,KENNETH McKINDER CARLUKE,ALAN McNAB YOKER,MALCOM ROBERTSON PENICUIK,DANIEL McGRAIN BLANTYRE VICS,KIRKWOOD LAWSON BLANTYRE VICS,IAN WOODECKI BONESS,SAMUEL MURRAY HURLFORD. 1 to 11

SUB PLAYER JOHN THOMSON BLANTYRE VICS

SUB GK IAN HAY IRVINE MEADOW

TRAINER W MITCHELL HURLFORD

Many thanks for all the details. I have now found the score - 3:2 to the SJFA XI with a hat-trick by Kirkie Lawson who went on to play for Motherwell, Falkirk and Hamilton Accies.

Can you also help with the match on 10 May 1970 against the Republic of Ireland in Dublin? We have the team selected and the Scottish goalscorers (Hume, Kerr, Woodecki, Robertson) but we need to check that there were no last minute changes.  Here are the eleven players we have:

Willie Hume (Penicuik Athletic)

Albert Kerr (Banks o' Dee)

Danny McGrain (Blantyre Victoria)

Kenny McKinder (Carluke Rovers)

Alistair   McMillan (Ashfield)

Sammy  Murray (Hurlford United)

Malcolm Robertson (Penicuik Athletic)

Jim Sinclair (Yoker Athletic)

Jim Thorburn (Penicuik Athletic)

Bobby Watson (Ardrossan Winton Rovers)

Ian Woodecki (Bo'ness United)

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JOHN THOMSON BLANTYRE VICS SUB PLAYER

THOMAS GOURLAY ASHFIELD SUB GK

PADDY WINTON JEANFIELD SWIFTS TRAINER

ALSO PLAYED IN ANOTHER GAME VERSUS SCOTTISH SECONDAY JUVENILE SELECT AT CLYDEBANK,IF YOU HAVE ANY INFO ON THE GAME THAT  WOULD BE GREAT

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1 hour ago, thor163 said:

JOHN THOMSON BLANTYRE VICS SUB PLAYER

THOMAS GOURLAY ASHFIELD SUB GK

PADDY WINTON JEANFIELD SWIFTS TRAINER

ALSO PLAYED IN ANOTHER GAME VERSUS SCOTTISH SECONDAY JUVENILE SELECT AT CLYDEBANK,IF YOU HAVE ANY INFO ON THE GAME THAT  WOULD BE GREAT

Thanks for confirming that we have the correct starting XI and thanks as well for giving the names of the substitutes and trainer. I have added those new details to the record.

The information we have is that the other match you mention was played to celebrate the 50th anniversary of the Secondary Juvenile Football Association. It was played at Kilbowie Park, Clydebank on 1 May 1971. It was a 1:1 draw with Alan Hughes’ first half goal giving the SJFA XI a 1:0 lead at half-time.

The SJFA team was:

Eddie Pryce (Kirkintilloch Rob Roy)

Jim Thorburn (Penicuik Athletic)

Jim Sinclair (Yoker Athletic)

Robert Denholm (Fauldhouse United)

Hugh McCann (Linlithgow Rose)

Bobby McGinn (Kilsyth Rangers)

Ian Anderson (Newtongrange Star)

Steve Hancock ( Newtongrange Star)

Tommy Stein (Largs Thistle)

Alan Hughes (Yoker Athletic)

Archie Lochrie (Cumbernauld United)

Subs:

Tommy O'Hara (Kirkintilloch Rob Roy)

Sandy White (Glenrothes)

If you have any conflicting details or other recollections please do let me know and I can check them out. I do remember it took us some time to work out “Denholm” was probably “Robert Denholm (Fauldhouse United)”.

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4 minutes ago, thor163 said:

COULD YOU CHANGE YOUR STATS TO JOHN THORBURN    NOT JIM  

WHERE CAN I READ YOUR STATS ON JUNIOR FOOTBALL

Oops! Sorry! I have now corrected it.

If you click on this link below it will take you to the list of matches and players. it will not include the  most recent additions, amendments, etc. 

http://www.scottish-football-historical-archive.co.uk/scotlandjuniorinternationals.xlsx

If you have any problems just let me now.

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14 hours ago, bluedragon said:

Many thanks for all the details. I have now found the score - 3:2 to the SJFA XI with a hat-trick by Kirkie Lawson who went on to play for Motherwell, Falkirk and Hamilton Accies.

Can you also help with the match on 10 May 1970 against the Republic of Ireland in Dublin? We have the team selected and the Scottish goalscorers (Hume, Kerr, Woodecki, Robertson) but we need to check that there were no last minute changes.  Here are the eleven players we have:

Willie Hume (Penicuik Athletic)

Albert Kerr (Banks o' Dee)

Danny McGrain (Blantyre Victoria)

Kenny McKinder (Carluke Rovers)

Alistair   McMillan (Ashfield)

Sammy  Murray (Hurlford United)

Malcolm Robertson (Penicuik Athletic)

Jim Sinclair (Yoker Athletic)

Jim Thorburn (Penicuik Athletic)

Bobby Watson (Ardrossan Winton Rovers)

Ian Woodecki (Bo'ness United)

One small amendment in spelling.  It should be Wodecki.  He went on to play for Alloa Athletic

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10 minutes ago, Jambo'ness said:

One small amendment in spelling.  It should be Wodecki.  He went on to play for Alloa Athletic

Thanks Jambo'ness. I have now made the correction to the spelling.

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3 hours ago, holmparkheroes said:

bd, pretty sure Ross Campbell played in 2013. Then with Clydebank, now Bo'ness.

HPH thanks for raising that. I think we may have an issue in the records in separating Mark Campbell (Irvine Meadow XI) and Ross Campbell (Clydebank) in the 2013 Quadrangular Tournament.  At present we have Mark playing against the Republic of Ireland and Northern Ireland and  as a used substitute against the Isle of Man. We do not have Ross listed. However, another source has Campbell (Clydebank) AND Campbell (Irvine Meadow XI) playing in the tournament.

Mark was certainly named in the original squad but I see now he was carrying a long-term injury and another source says he may have only been on stand-by for the Scotland squad. I am now wondering if he travelled with the squad or if it was Ross who played?

Some more detective work required! Thanks very much for raising the question. If anyone can help please let me know.  

Edited by bluedragon

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We have answered the Campbell question! Mark Campbell (Irvine Meadow XI) was initially named in the squad but only as a standby and in any case he probably would not have been called up as he was injured. Ross Campbell (Clydebank) was called up as a last-minute replacement for Chris Robertson (Cumnock) who had picked up an injury. Ross played in the matches against Republic of Ireland and Northern Ireland and came on as a substitute for Ian Diack (Pollok) in the Isle of Man match.

HPH thanks again for highlighting this and giving us the chance to correct the records.

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2 hours ago, bluedragon said:

We have answered the Campbell question! Mark Campbell (Irvine Meadow XI) was initially named in the squad but only as a standby and in any case he probably would not have been called up as he was injured. Ross Campbell (Clydebank) was called up as a last-minute replacement for Chris Robertson (Cumnock) who had picked up an injury. Ross played in the matches against Republic of Ireland and Northern Ireland and came on as a substitute for Ian Diack (Pollok) in the Isle of Man match.

HPH thanks again for highlighting this and giving us the chance to correct the records.

Happy to help bd. Great job you're doing. Appreciated.

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Here are two more questions that are definitely in the obscure category but I will ask them anyway!

The first non-Scottish born player to play for Junior Scotland – after the Second World War the North Wales Coast FA, that provided the “Wales” team, decided to drop its Welsh-born selection criteria and would in future select from all players at member clubs. It appears that they asked for the SJFA’s permission that was given providing that they did not select any Scots. This perhaps suggests that the SJFA were selecting Scottish-born players at that  time. I don’t know for sure. The first non-Scottish born player I can find is Steve Hancock (Newtongrange Star) who was born in Sheffield and was capped in 1971. He went on to have a long Scottish League career. If anyone knows of any earlier non-Scottish born players or the SJFA’s selection criteria I would be interested to know.

A hat-trick of caps – it would be unusual to find a player capped at all three non-age group categories (junior, amateur and full) and indeed we have not found one yet. The nearest is Alec Stewart who was capped as a Junior while at Perth YMCA in 1927 and as an Amateur in 1929 when a St Mirren player. He came close to a full cap when he was capped for the Scottish League in 1937 while at Motherwell. If anyone has any other suggestions I would be interested to hear.

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11 hours ago, bluedragon said:

The first non-Scottish born player to play for Junior Scotland – after the Second World War the North Wales Coast FA, that provided the “Wales” team, decided to drop its Welsh-born selection criteria and would in future select from all players at member clubs. It appears that they asked for the SJFA’s permission that was given providing that they did not select any Scots. This perhaps suggests that the SJFA were selecting Scottish-born players at that  time. I don’t know for sure. The first non-Scottish born player I can find is Steve Hancock (Newtongrange Star) who was born in Sheffield and was capped in 1971. He went on to have a long Scottish League career. If anyone knows of any earlier non-Scottish born players or the SJFA’s selection criteria I would be interested to know.

Someone has given me the answer to this question. Bert Tickle (Parkhead) played in the Junior International against Ireland in 1900. His parents came from St Helens and he was born in Oldbury, West Midlands. A newspaper report said that he “would have been chosen again had the fact that he was an Englishman not been discovered.”

Edited by bluedragon

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On ‎19‎/‎01‎/‎2018 at 11:06, bluedragon said:

Here are two more questions that are definitely in the obscure category but I will ask them anyway!

 

A hat-trick of caps – it would be unusual to find a player capped at all three non-age group categories (junior, amateur and full) and indeed we have not found one yet. The nearest is Alec Stewart who was capped as a Junior while at Perth YMCA in 1927 and as an Amateur in 1929 when a St Mirren player. He came close to a full cap when he was capped for the Scottish League in 1937 while at Motherwell. If anyone has any other suggestions I would be interested to hear.

Have a 'close but no cigar' one here.

Donald Ford joined Bo'ness United in January 1964 and played for an East of Scotland select against a Hearts XI in April, in a 3-1 defeat.  He subsequently joined Hears in June 1964 and played for the Scotland Amateur team on 20/02/65, against Wales at Rhyl.  He scored in the 1-1 draw.

Of course he then went on to play for Scotland and was part of the World Cup Squad in West Germany in 1974.

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43 minutes ago, Jambo'ness said:

Have a 'close but no cigar' one here.

Donald Ford joined Bo'ness United in January 1964 and played for an East of Scotland select against a Hearts XI in April, in a 3-1 defeat.  He subsequently joined Hears in June 1964 and played for the Scotland Amateur team on 20/02/65, against Wales at Rhyl.  He scored in the 1-1 draw.

Of course he then went on to play for Scotland and was part of the World Cup Squad in West Germany in 1974.

Thanks Jambo'ness. I think that is just as close as my Alec Stewart!  In all Donald played nine times for the Amateur Scotland team and scored nine goals. 

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We have now got all except one of the forenames  of the players who played in International matches since the Second World War. The player we are missing is “Turnbull (Sunnybank)” who played two matches in 1981.

Michael Turnbull (Banks o’ Dee)” was capped the year before (1980) and a few years later (1987 & 1988). Is this the same player?  It certainly looks like it but I cannot as yet prove it. To muddy the waters further a Welsh source lists “Turnbull (Banks o’ Dee)” in the 1981 match against Wales at Prestonfield, Linlithgow on 25 April 1981!

Having recently sorted out Ross and Mark Campbell I cannot discount that there were two Turnbulls playing in Aberdeen at the same time.  Can anyone help please?

Thank you.

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