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bluedragon

Junior Internationals – questions, help, clarification, etc.

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Blue dragon do you know if the B Heron listed is the same player who went on to play for Rangers?

I have had a reply from John as follows - Billy Murdoch  Kilsyth Rangers FC  and Frank Thomson  Renfrew Juniors FC   were the Subs that day. 
I also received a reply from elsewhere that the goalscorer was Dalglish, he said that Dalglish had scored from a re-taken free kick. 
If I find any more info or photos I will share the. 

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Cheers Gogsy I will try and get a copy of it from DC Thomson archive

Game is mentioned in the following Mondays Courier( bound volumes kept in Cupar library), unfortunately I cannot remember how detailed the match report was, although I think there were changes to the original Scotland squad.

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23 hours ago, Griffin said:

Blue dragon do you know if the B Heron listed is the same player who went on to play for Rangers?

Thanks for the information about the subs and goalscorer that I have now added to the records.  Yes , it was the same Brian Heron.who went on to play for Rangers, Motherwell, Dumbarton, Oxford United and Scunthorpe United. 

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Game is mentioned in the following Mondays Courier( bound volumes kept in Cupar library), unfortunately I cannot remember how detailed the match report was, although I think there were changes to the original Scotland squad.
There was at least one change with Hugh Gilshan (Johnstone Burgh) replacing an injured Andy Madden (Neilston) from the original selected team.

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On 11/05/2020 at 20:40, peasy23 said:

Scan_20200510 (16).jpg

I don't know if you wanted names to faces but that's Whitburn's Paul "Oscar" Taylor in the 2nd row, 2nd from left. He played for Edinburgh City towards the end of his career and is now a solicitor.

There's a Junior Scotland cap on display in the Edinburgh City Social club- I'll take a photo of it when I'm next in. It was presented by an ex City player from when they were Juniors in the 50s although I think he won it with another club.

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On 08/07/2020 at 13:58, Griffin said:

I have had a reply from John as follows - Billy Murdoch  Kilsyth Rangers FC  and Frank Thomson  Renfrew Juniors FC   were the Subs that day. 

I also received a reply from elsewhere that the goalscorer was Dalglish, he said that Dalglish had scored from a re-taken free kick. 

If I find any more info or photos I will share the. 

 

Evening Times, 16 September 1967

 

 

 

 

 

image.png

Edited by bluedragon

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14 hours ago, tamthebam said:

I don't know if you wanted names to faces but that's Whitburn's Paul "Oscar" Taylor in the 2nd row, 2nd from left. He played for Edinburgh City towards the end of his career and is now a solicitor.

There's a Junior Scotland cap on display in the Edinburgh City Social club- I'll take a photo of it when I'm next in. It was presented by an ex City player from when they were Juniors in the 50s although I think he won it with another club.

Thank you for posting this photograph and making a start to put names to faces.  I would be very interested to see a photograph of the cap on display in the Edinburgh City Soclal Club to see if we can help identify who won it.  The only player we have playing for Junior Scotland while at Edinburgh City was Frank Mackay, brother of Dave Mackay, in 1952.  However, he did not play in a match where caps would have normally been awarded. 

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This is from the Evening Telegraph's on-line  "Blether with Brown" that might interest some.

Lochee’s Jim Wilson asked which team was most successful in the old Dundee Junior League.

The league ran from 1895-96 until regionalisation in 1969.

Lochee Harp were champions on 20 occasions, which is double that of Dundee Violet on 10.

Carnoustie Panmure picked up seven titles, one more than North End.


Compiling the May 2 issue, which featured an old Carnoustie Juniors photo, one name stuck out.

The surname Boag was attributed to one of the players and I wondered if he could be a family connection to Rob Boag.

Canadian resident Rob often contributes to BwB and, sure enough, 24 hours later, the former Lochee man positively responded.

He opened: “That is a wonderful Carnoustie FC photograph. My Uncle Dickie Boag was in that team, and I’m guessing that photo was taken in 1946-47.

“Sadly, he passed away from cancer in 1948.”

Rob also sent in a photo, and continued: “Dickie is also in the attached Scottish Junior team who played England on April 7, 1933, at Windmill Ground, Leamington.

Scottish Junior Team from 1933
Scottish Junior Team from 1933

“Dickie’s in the second row up, third in from the right, and another Dundonian, Jimmy Briggs, is in the same row, second in from the left.

“The score was 2-1 for Scotland, with Dundee lads Boag and Briggs the goalscorers.”

The Scotland team was – Gourley (Dunipace); McDonald (Bonnyrigg Rose), McLure (Parkhead); Corrance (Renfrew), Lyon (Kirkintilloch Rob Roy), McDonald (Tranent); Naughton (Larkhall Thistle), Briggs (Dundee Violet), McKillop (Rosslyn), Duffy (Yoker Athletic), Boag (Lochee Harp).

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1 hour ago, Eednud said:

This is from the Evening Telegraph's on-line  "Blether with Brown" that might interest some.

Lochee’s Jim Wilson asked which team was most successful in the old Dundee Junior League.

The league ran from 1895-96 until regionalisation in 1969.

Lochee Harp were champions on 20 occasions, which is double that of Dundee Violet on 10.

Carnoustie Panmure picked up seven titles, one more than North End.


Compiling the May 2 issue, which featured an old Carnoustie Juniors photo, one name stuck out.

The surname Boag was attributed to one of the players and I wondered if he could be a family connection to Rob Boag.

Canadian resident Rob often contributes to BwB and, sure enough, 24 hours later, the former Lochee man positively responded.

He opened: “That is a wonderful Carnoustie FC photograph. My Uncle Dickie Boag was in that team, and I’m guessing that photo was taken in 1946-47.

“Sadly, he passed away from cancer in 1948.”

Rob also sent in a photo, and continued: “Dickie is also in the attached Scottish Junior team who played England on April 7, 1933, at Windmill Ground, Leamington.

Scottish Junior Team from 1933

Scottish Junior Team from 1933

“Dickie’s in the second row up, third in from the right, and another Dundonian, Jimmy Briggs, is in the same row, second in from the left.

“The score was 2-1 for Scotland, with Dundee lads Boag and Briggs the goalscorers.”

The Scotland team was – Gourley (Dunipace); McDonald (Bonnyrigg Rose), McLure (Parkhead); Corrance (Renfrew), Lyon (Kirkintilloch Rob Roy), McDonald (Tranent); Naughton (Larkhall Thistle), Briggs (Dundee Violet), McKillop (Rosslyn), Duffy (Yoker Athletic), Boag (Lochee Harp).

Thank you for posting this photograph. There must have been many pre-War photographs of Junior Scotland teams taken but they are difficult to find.

A couple of small corrections.  The match was played on 8 April 1933 and the photograph was taken at St Andrews, Birmingham, the ground of Birmingham (later City) FC, where the match was played.

By one of those strange coincidences I have seen this photograph before but the source was the grandson of the other Dundonian in the team, Jimmy Briggs.  Thanks to your post we can now put a name to another face in the team photograph, Dickie Boag.

Here is the line-up in the photograph as we have it. Names in bold are definite identifications (with Dickie Boag now added - thanks), the other names are best guesses using other photographs and at the end are the four players we cannot place.  The players are difficult to identify as they are wearing their caps and are younger than other photographs taken later in their careers.  One clue is that they appear to be wearing their club socks.  If anyone can help pleas just let me know.

Row 1 (Back row) from left to right: [official], [official], [official], DS Beaton (Dundee Violet), [official], [official].

Row 2 from left to right: [official], T Wallace (Bridgeton Waverley) (Trainer), [XXX], Archie Gourlay (Dunipace), Duncan Erskine (Alyth United) (Travelling Reserve), [XXX], [XXX].

Row 3 from left to right: [official], Robert Corrance (Renfrew) (Captain), Jimmy Briggs (Dundee Violet), [XXX], [XXX], Dicky Boag (Lochee Harp), John McDonald (Bonnyrigg Rose Athletic), Willie Lyon (Kirkintilloch Rob Roy].

Row 4 from left to right: Duncan McClure (Parkhead), [XXX], [XXX].

Bold indicates they have definitely been identified.

Unplaced players:

Malcolm McDonald (Tranent)

Hugh Naughton (Larkhall Thistle)

Alastair McKillop (Rosslyn)

Harry Duff (Yoker Athletic)

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On 01/08/2020 at 21:38, gogsy said:

Query for Bluedragpn.

Local press at the start of 1907/8 season have Kelty Rangers signing a T Ferguson who is described as an ex Junior Internationalist. I haven't seen that name in any of the team lists for Scotland juniors so always thought it was an error, have you ever seen someone that matches that one?

The only Ferguson that featured in trials for and/or the Junior Scotland team at this time was James Ferguson (Strathclyde) but he was a Blackburn Rovers player in the 1907/08 season.

As you probably know the newspapers of the day often used the term “junior internationalist” for players who were not SJFA caps but had represented their league against their Irish equivalents. No Ferguson played for the Lanarkshire Junior League or the Scottish Junior League against the Irish Junior League in this time.  However, although the first initial does not agree Robert C Ferguson (Parkhead) might be a good lead. He was the centre forward in the Glasgow Junior League that played against the Irish Junior League on 17 February 1906 and scored a goal.  He appears to sign for St Mirren in April 1906 and play some end-of-season matches before playing 4 league matches in the 1906/07 season.  I cannot see him in the 1907/08 season in Scotland or England League football (Kelty Rangers?). He then re-appears to sign for Albion Rovers in June 1908 and play two league matches in the 1908/09 season.

I hope this might be of help.

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15 hours ago, gogsy said:

Thanks for the reply, one other quick question. I seem to recall reserve X1s being picked at the same time as the full international team, (presumably the player in the reserve select would replace the original selected player if that player was unavailable) any idea when this stopped?

Without checking, I would say the practice of naming a Reserve XI stopped in the late 1950’s.  As you say, if a player in the selected team had to call off then the player in his position was called into the team.  Also one of the Reserve XI was selected as the travelling reserve.  The travelling reserve also received a cap.  Since we published the book on Junior Scotland we have continued our research and my co-author has found the names of many travelling reserves. 

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just curious with Junior sides doing fairly well when they meet senior sides in Cup competitions, and now being part of the league pyramid, are sides today better than say the 90's  or turn of the century ?
Probably the wrong forum to post that question, as the junior sides are not in the pyramid. The former West junior sides have moved to the West of Scotland League forum.

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2 hours ago, Stan Hope said:

just curious with Junior sides doing fairly well when they meet senior sides in Cup competitions, and now being part of the league pyramid, are sides today better than say the 90's  or turn of the century ?

A great question but not easy to try and answer.   As you say, some Junior clubs (Auchinleck Talbot, Bo’ness United, Bonnyrigg Rose, Irvine Meadow XI, Linlithgow Rose & Sunnybank), have achieved some great results in the Scottish Cup since 2007/08.  It is difficult to say how the top clubs from earlier times would have fared without the evidence of matches in the Scottish Cup. 

My initial reaction would be to say that at least since the Second World War the top Junior teams would have always done well against lower level Scottish League clubs.

A watershed moment was the gradual relaxation of the reinstatement rules and age limits that made it easier for Junior clubs to recruit older players with league experience to blend in with younger players.  When the draconian reinstatement rules were in force (up to the 1950’s?) it would have been difficult for a club to bring in a few good and experienced heads that all good teams need. I would hazard a guess that the re-instatement rules were significantly relaxed by the late 1980’s (?) 

Having said all that, there were many, many excellent Junior players who chose to turn down offers to move to Senior football and these players would have provided the experienced heads in many teams.

Junior Scotland regularly played Scottish League clubs (not forgetting Arsenal) and although these were not first team strength teams they were still strong opponents. Since the Second World War Junior Scotland have played 24 such matches involving 17 different clubs, winning 13, drawing 4 and losing 6. They scored 52 goals and conceded 43. Not a bad record.

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On show in the bowels of Paties Road:

eu1.thumb.jpg.31ce4fbcc28bf4c3e0b2ad1a7a463987.jpg

eu2.thumb.jpg.a0546109a5bb1d5680c05f5a5b1417b7.jpg

^this should be 90 degrees to the perpendicular. Tilt your heid...

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Thanks for posting the photographs. Gordon Belcher was the first player from an Edinburgh club for 52 years to be capped for Junior Scotland.

Result: Scotland 2 (1) Republic of Ireland 0 (0)

Goalscorers: Tony McDonald 2

Venue: Prestonfield, Linlithgow

Scotland:  Mark Glynn (Ormiston Primrose), John Coughlin (Newtongrange Star), Eddie McAuley (Dundee North End), Allan McKeeman (Linlithgow Rose), Alex Coubrough (Pollok), Tom McDonald (Auchinleck Talbot), Alan Pirie (Auchinleck Talbot), Tom Donnelly (Vale of Clyde), Colin Crichton (Pollok), Tony McDonald (Arthurlie), Billy Muir (Kilbirnie Ladeside). Substitutes: Gordon Belcher (Edinburgh United), Jim Brown (Irvine Meadow XI), Raymond Day (Cumnock), Lewis Muirhead (Bon Accord [Aberdeen]), John Wright (Hill of Beath Hawthorn).

MANAGER: Tommy Reynolds

Gordon was the 20th and last player from an Edinburgh club to be capped for Junior Scotland.  Before Gordon you need to go back to 1937 when William Clark and Thomas McIntyre were capped against England and Northern Ireland respectively.  In 1952 Frank Mackay (brother of Dave) played for Junior Scotland against the Perthshire JFA while at Edinburgh City. However, he did not make the team that met the Republic of Ireland the following week.

The Edinburgh clubs that supplied 20 players who won 28 caps were:

Bainfield, Dalry Primrose, Dunrobin Athletic, Edinburgh Emmet, Edinburgh Myrtle, Edinburgh United, Edinburgh Renton, Granton Oakvale, North Western, Portobello Renton, Portobello Thistle and Woodburn.

 

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I didn't know Frank Mackay was Dave's brother- thanks for that as the short lived Junior years were a bit glossed over in the Edinburgh City 75 year history (2003) There's plans for an updated version so that fact might go in..

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We have so far identified 2,525 players who have represented the Scottish Junior Football Association in both international and other matches.  We have a forename(s) or first initial(s) for all but 97 of them.  Of those, 34 played in international matches and we are concentrating on trying to find a forename/initial for this group.  We are confident we can reduce that number a little further indeed this morning with a lead provided by a historian of Bo’ness junior clubs we reduced the list by one with a player from 1901.

Here is the list (in club alphabetical order - current clubs shown with **) as it stands. Most of the players have common surnames, played for clubs that are now defunct and the most recent cap was in 1937.  Despite this who knows perhaps a scan down the list may just come up with a few suggestions, leads, ideas, etc. that we can follow up.

Airdrieonians 'A' - McKinlay (1896)

Argyll (Aberdeen) - Cotton (1926)

Benburb  - Leslie (1890)

**Blantyre Victoria - Robertson (1915)

Burnbank Athletic – Hunter (1927); Thomson (1920)

**Cambuslang Rangers - McIntosh (1921)

Clydebank Juniors - Mills (1917)

Coalburn - Kerr (1929)

Corporation Cleansing Department - Wilson (1928)

**Dalkeith Thistle - McBurnie (1932)

Dalziel Rovers - Irvine (1907)

**Darvel - Findlay (1927)

Douglas Water Thistle - Henderson (1913)

Drongan - Morrison (1920)

Dumbarton Juniors - Hislop (1923)

Dunaskin Lads - Logan (1921)

Dundee Arnot - Graham (1908)

** Dunipace Juniors - Taylor (1927); Cairns (1928)

Duntocher Hibernian - Grieve (1904)

Earnock Rovers - Miller (1909)

**Glasgow Perthshire - Bennie (1927); Keith (1926)

Hamilton West End Rangers - Sneddon (1890)

Moore Park - Hosie (1897)

Morton Juniors - Fleming (1937)

Mugiemoss - Tough (1911)

Muirkirk Athletic - Grant (1915)

Ormiston Primrose - Gray (1931)

**Renfrew - Brown (1916 & 1920)

Renfrew Victoria - Leitch (1910)

Shawbank - Wilson (1894)

Strathclyde - McMurray (1927)

Thank you.

Edited by bluedragon

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