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bluedragon

Junior Internationals – questions, help, clarification, etc.

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We now have collected information on 433 matches played by Junior Scotland. We have 2,418 players listed. However, we are still missing a forename(s)/first initial(s) for several players who played for one of today’s clubs. It is difficult to find forenames from these times as newspaper reports, line-ups, etc. only included a surname. One of the other problems is that with many line-ups collected from newspapers there is a risk I have a mis-spelling of some surnames. Anyway if anyone can help in any way it would be very much appreciated.

Thank you.

Here is the current list. (I) indicates that the player played in an international match.

Ashfield - Dysart (I) (1901)

Blantyre Victoria - Robertson (I) (1915)

Cambuslang Rangers  - McIntosh (I) (1921)

Cumnock - Cumming (1916); McCracken (1921)

Dalry Thistle - Carroll (1921)

Darvel - Ross (1922); Findlay (I) (1927)

Dundee Violet - Young (1916)

Dunipace Juniors - Mackay (1906); Robertson (1906); Ferguson (1921)

Fauldhouse United - McMeekin (1926)

Glasgow Perthshire - Abrams (1926); Bennie (I) (1927); Keith (I) (1926); Menzies (1926); McKay  (1921)

Hall Russell's - Soutar (1927); Baxter (1941)

Kilbirnie Ladeside - Carroce (1920)

Larkhall Thistle - Paterson (1921)

Maryhill - Johnstone (1921)

Renfrew - Brown (I) (1916 & 1920)

Shettleston - Cassidy (1911); Jamieson (I) (1924); White (1939)

Vale of Clyde - Weeks (1893); Paterson (1939)

Vale of Leven - O'Hare (1920)

Yoker Athletic - Gray (1915); Kennedy (I) (1927)

EDITED on 11 October 2019 to delete three players whose forename/initial have now been found.

Edited by bluedragon

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I was doing some searching on BNA and saw a reference to a William Keenan on this link, unfortunately not a member of site so couldn't go into further detail maybe gives William Keenan Armadale 1941? West Lothian Courier 8th August

https://www.britishnewspaperarchive.co.uk/search/results/1941-01-01/1941-12-31?basicsearch=keenan &somesearch=keenan&exactsearch=false&retrievecountrycounts=false&newspapertitle=west%2Blothian%2Bcourier&page=0

 

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On 09/10/2019 at 23:50, gogsy said:

I was doing some searching on BNA and saw a reference to a William Keenan on this link, unfortunately not a member of site so couldn't go into further detail maybe gives William Keenan Armadale 1941? West Lothian Courier 8th August

https://www.britishnewspaperarchive.co.uk/search/results/1941-01-01/1941-12-31?basicsearch=keenan &somesearch=keenan&exactsearch=false&retrievecountrycounts=false&newspapertitle=west%2Blothian%2Bcourier&page=0

 

Thanks Gogsy. You have found  one of our missing forenames.  William Brackanridge Keenan played for Clydebank and West Calder United before going to Rochdale for the 1938/39 season.  In that BNA link it shows him as "right back William Keenan (Rochdale)" in the list of Armadale Thistle players for the 1941/42 season. 

We have found another two forenames and so I will edit the previous post to take the three players off the list.

Thank you.

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Full and amateur Scottish internationalists can find their record in dedicated books but a Junior internationalist cannot – until now!  We have put  the results of our research (to date!) into book format. 

 “Junior Scotland 1889 to 2019: The Matches and Players” by Douglas Gorman and Tom McGouran is available on the Lulu self-publishing website for £9.50 plus £2.99 post & packaging using this link:

http://www.lulu.com/shop/douglas-gorman-and-tom-mcgouran/junior-scotland-1889-to-2019-the-players-and-matches/paperback/product-24374426.html

Note: the website will automatically default to the more expensive delivery option (£12.99)  and if you want it for £2.99 then you need to change it.

The book lists details of 421 international and friendly matches played by Junior Scotland over 130 years. It also includes 11 matches that were postponed or abandoned to complete the listing. The listing of each match also includes, when it could be found, the attendance and gate receipts.

We have been able to identify 2,426 players from those matches and their Junior Scotland record, together with goals scored and if they captained the team, is all included in the individual listing of each player. 

Although the book is principally a listing of players and matches it would not be complete without featuring some reference to the rich history of the Junior game. The book includes two chapters detailing some of the famous players and notable matches included in the listings. It also has three summaries of all the matches played in tabular format and details of the various trophies competed for over the years.

Inevitably some match details have proved elusive. We believe that we have identified all matches described as internationals although we are still searching for the names of scorers of 20 goals.  There will be other friendly matches still to be discovered.  95% of the players involved in the matches listed have been identified and of those all but 106 have a forename or at least a first initial. We are also still searching for the names of the scorers of 57 goals in friendly matches. An appendix lists the missing information and we would be very pleased to hear from anyone who can help us or indeed if anyone has any conflicting information.

Junior Scotland 1889 to 2019 cover.png

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Can anyone help us put names to faces in this photograph of the Junior Scotland party taken prior to the international against England at St Andrews, Birmingham on Saturday 8 April 1933? 

There are 13 people wearing caps presented for the match. To complicate matters they do not appear to be sitting in position order and the caps makes it more difficult to identify them by hair styles.  For those who went Senior  they would be relative young in this photograph so adding a further complication.

Counting the back row as Row 1 then in Row 1 I think the person fourth in from the left is DS Beaton, an official at Dundee Violet who travelled with the party. In Row 2 is goalkeeper Archie Gourlay.  One of the two others in Row 2 who are both wearing suits is Duncan Erskine who was the travelling reserve. The other is the trainer who might be T Wallace (Bridgeton Waverley).  In Row 3 with his hands on the shoulders of his team mate in front is Jimmy Briggs. That is as far as we have got!  Can anyone help please?

Here is the team in position order:

Archibald J Gourlay (Dunipace Juniors) – identified.

Duncan F McClure (Parkhead) – went Senior with Heart of Midlothian.

John McDonald (Bonnyrigg Rose Athletic)

Robert "Bobby" Corrance (Renfrew) (Captain) – went Senior and played for East Stirlingshire, Falkirk and Albion Rovers.

William Lyon (Kirkintilloch Rob Roy) – played for Queen’s Park and Celtic and captained the Scotland party on a tour of North America in 1939.

Malcolm McDonald (Tranent)

Hugh Naughton (Larkhall Thistle)

James "Jimmy" Briggs (Dundee Violet) – identified.

Alastair R McKillop (Rosslyn) – played briefly for Raith Rovers and Armadale.

Harry Duffy (Yoker Athletic)

Richard "Dicky" Boag (Lochee Harp) – later went Senior mainly played for Cowdenbeath

Travelling reserve: Duncan C Erskine (Alyth United)

Thank you.

Scotland v England 1933 team photograph.jpg

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The attached is a photo of Robert Corrance when he was at East Stirlingshire in 1935/36. It is hard to say who he is in this 1932/33 team photo, 1st player on left 2nd row from the front perhaps ?

ps bought your book. Fantastic work. It is helping me a lot with my own research.

R. Corrance 1936.jpg

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Thanks for posting the photograph of Robert Corrance. The caps together with a few years on their ages in other team photographs make them difficult to identify. As Robert Corrance was captain I am wondering if he is the player in the middle of the seven players seated. With the goalkeeper standing directly behind him and directly in front of him is the middle player of the three players sitting cross legged it might be a logical place for him to sit.

Thanks for the kind words on the book.

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Thanks for posting the three photographs of Dickie Boag.  If in the team photograph he had not been wearing his cap and was smiling I think he would have been easy to find using your photographs.  From what I understand he was quite short in height and so I like your suggestion of third from the right second row from the front.

 

 

Edited by bluedragon

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Excellent book.

Some missing attendances from matches at Rugby Park, from Kilmarnock FC's records:-

9th December 1950 Ayrshire JFA v Scotland (Knockshinnoch Colliery Disaster Relief Fund)      4,377

7th April 1951  Scotland v Wales     6,658

13th March 1965  Scotland v Ireland  2,675

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On 13/03/2020 at 19:50, Horatio said:

Excellent book.

Some missing attendances from matches at Rugby Park, from Kilmarnock FC's records:-

9th December 1950 Ayrshire JFA v Scotland (Knockshinnoch Colliery Disaster Relief Fund)      4,377

7th April 1951  Scotland v Wales     6,658

13th March 1965  Scotland v Ireland  2,675

Thanks for the attendance figures that are very difficult to find. I have updated the records.

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Got the book yesterday - looks a great source of reference!

One wee change while I remember: Robert Downs definitely has his name spelled that way, not Downes.

Edited by cmontheloknow

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Been scanning a load of stuff to put on the Petershill Facebook page in the last few weeks, I'll stick some of the Scotland pictures on here too.

Scan_20200419 (5).jpg

Scan_20200419 (8).jpg

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On 10/05/2020 at 08:17, cmontheloknow said:

Got the book yesterday - looks a great source of reference!

One wee change while I remember: Robert Downs definitely has his name spelled that way, not Downes.

Thanks for the kind words on the book.  Thanks as well for the confirmation in the spelling of "Downs" and I have changed the records accordingly.

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2 hours ago, peasy23 said:

Been scanning a load of stuff to put on the Petershill Facebook page in the last few weeks, I'll stick some of the Scotland pictures on here too.

Scan_20200419 (5).jpg

Scan_20200419 (8).jpg

Thank you for posting the photographs. Bert McNab, of course, jointly holds the record of 13 Junior International caps.  

Willie Westwater won three caps and was part of a footballing dynasty! His own son, Alan, played for Australia. His brothers George (Dennistoun Waverley) and James (Benburb) also played Junior football. Their father, George, won three caps in 1924. A John Westwater of Dunipace played for Junior Scotland in a non-international match in 1908 and looks to be related.

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1 hour ago, bluedragon said:

Thank you for posting the photographs. Bert McNab, of course, jointly holds the record of 13 Junior International caps.  

Willie Westwater won three caps and was part of a footballing dynasty! His own son, Alan, played for Australia. His brothers George (Dennistoun Waverley) and James (Benburb) also played Junior football. Their father, George, won three caps in 1924. A John Westwater of Dunipace played for Junior Scotland in a non-international match in 1908 and looks to be related.

FYI Alan Westwater's first game for Australia was against Scotland Sydney in 1967, he played in all 3 games in the series. Wikipedia has him playing 14 times for Australia but the Australian Player Database has it as 16 although the games against Scotland were not full internationals as far as Scotland's concerned and the games Combined Services and 1 of the Indonesia games definiely not full internationals.

Westwater, George Alan
Date of Birth: 26-Mar-46, Bridge of Allan, Scotland
Position: Midfielder

Socceroo Honours
Total - 16 apps. 3 gls.
1967 - Scotland, Scotland, Scotland, New Zealand, South Vietnam, Singapore (1 goal), Malaysia, South Korea, Indonesia, Indonesia (sub), Singapore (1 goal), Combined Services (1 goal), Malaysia
1968 - Japan, Japan, Japan

New South Wales Representative Honours

Playing Record
1962 - Bankstown (NSW Div 1)
1963/4 - Stirling Albion (Scotland) 14 app. 2 gls.
1964/5 - Stirling Albion (Scotland) 10 app. 4 gls.
1965/6 - Stirling Albion (Scotland) 17 app. 2 gls.
1966 - Pan Hellenic (NSW Div 1)
1967 - Pan Hellenic (NSW Div 1)
1968 - Pan Hellenic (NSW Div 1)

against Scotland although these were not full internationals.

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