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bluedragon

Junior Internationals – questions, help, clarification, etc.

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Hello,

1st post here, I'm trying to find out more about the cap in this image. It was awarded to my great grandmother's 1st husband who's name was either I'm led to believe John or James Whyte. The history is a bit sketchy, hence my post.  If anyone has anymore information on what game it was awarded for for or which club he represented I'd really appreciate it.

Thanks.

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If that is a Junior International cap from 1904 then there were two internationals in that year:

26 Mar 1904 v Ireland at Celtic Park, Glasgow Won 4-1 (ht 2-0)

9 Apr 1904 v England at Villa Park, Birmingham Lost 1-2 (ht 1-0)

Unfortunately there is not a White or Whyte in the 16 players we have who played in the two matches. They are:

William Anderson (Parkhead)

George Archibald (Edinburgh Myrtle)

Campbell (Renfrew Victoria)

James Dargue (Burnbank Athletic)

James Ferguson (Strathclyde)

Grieve (Duntocher Hibernian)

Hutchison (Blantyre Victoria)

William Johnstone (Darvel)

Charles Keir (Cambuslang Rangers)

Archibald "Punch" Kyle (Parkhead)

William Lavety (Vale of Clyde) (possibly spelt Lavity and Laverty)

James Lawrence (Glasgow Perthshire)

Robert Mason (Burnbank Athletic)

Alec Morton (Darvel)

Roddie Paterson (Parkhead)

Smith (Vale of Clyde)

I could not find a White or Whyte in a quick look at the reserve teams that were named. If there was a call-off in the selected XI then the player in the same position in the reserve XI would take his place. One of the reserve XI would be selected to be the travelling reserve and I believe would have received a cap. I also could not find a White or Whyte in any of the trial teams in the games played to help select the teams.

Do you have any more clues?  I will take a deeper look at the information surrounding those two games  and the players involved.

Edited by bluedragon

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That's really interesting, thanks for the information bluedragon.

I'm making an assumption it's a Junior International cap but wasn't sure if it was youth or juvenile cap. My family seem to think it's more likely to be a junior one though. I've since found out his name was Thomas Whyte! I'm not sure where he was born but I believe he was local to the Falkirk/Slamannan area and assume he played locally. He was 20 years old when he got married to my great grandmother in 1905 meaning the cap would have been awarded when he was either 18/19 years old which is why I don't think it's a juvenile or youth one. I know that name still isn't on that list of players so I'm stuck now!

 

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1 hour ago, TheRaithRover said:

That's really interesting, thanks for the information bluedragon.

I'm making an assumption it's a Junior International cap but wasn't sure if it was youth or juvenile cap. My family seem to think it's more likely to be a junior one though. I've since found out his name was Thomas Whyte! I'm not sure where he was born but I believe he was local to the Falkirk/Slamannan area and assume he played locally. He was 20 years old when he got married to my great grandmother in 1905 meaning the cap would have been awarded when he was either 18/19 years old which is why I don't think it's a juvenile or youth one. I know that name still isn't on that list of players so I'm stuck now!

 

Of course juvenile just meant the grade below the juniors and didn't refer to the age of the player as well, although there was an upper age limit ?

Have to say 1904 seems to be a bit early for a juvenile international though. JUst as I was typing this I noticed bluedragons reply, SJFA possibly Stirlingshire Junior football Association  was what I was going to write.

Edited by gogsy

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The second cap does looks remarkably like your photograph. However, another possibility is that the lettering stands for "Stirlingshire Junior Football Association" that would tie in with the Falkirk/Slamannan area. County select teams played each other at that time and caps would have been awarded. I have found a Whyte playing for Grange Rovers at that time but I am still trying to find a Stirlingshire JFA line-up with him in it.

Edited by bluedragon

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Some more!

Stirlingshire played Dunbartonshire in a Junior inter-county match on 14 May 1904 but there was no Whyte in the originally selected team or the one that took the field.

The Scottish Juvenile Football Association were trying to organise a match in Bradford or Leeds for Easter Monday 1904. Unfortunately I cannot, so far, find if the match took place. If it did it would be promising for your cap.

Edited by bluedragon

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Thanks very much for your contributions guys. I made an assumption SJFA was juniors as that was the logical thinking (and the 1st thing Google said!)

The button on top of the cap I have looks almost identical to the one in the auction photo. 

He was known locally as Tam and the Slamannan connection to Stirlingshire makes sense. Either way it's just nice to know a little bit more about where it might have originated from. 

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RaithRover – some more information!

A friend has been looking at this and found “Whyte (Grange Rovers)” playing (and scoring a hat-trick!) for Stirlingshire in a 4:1 win over Dunbartonshire on 18 February 1905 at Boghead Park, Dumbarton. The match was described as a trial match for the Junior International team. However, it is quite possible that this was a scheduled inter-county match, with a cap awarded, that was also used by the selectors. This happened on other occasions.

The trial matches were usually played in January & February ahead of internationals in March & April.

Clearly this does not tie with the year (1904) shown on your cap. However, there could be a number of reasons for this:

1) The inter-county match may have been originally scheduled to be played in the earlier part of the season (1904) and was re-scheduled to 18 February 1905 for some reason or another but after the caps had been purchased.

2) Other caps I have seen often have the season (1904/05) rather than a single year. Maybe the year on your cap (1904) refers to the start of the season?

This also does not get over the identical cap you found on the Internet for 1905. Again, there could be reasons for that:

1) The internet cap is in fact a Stirlingshire cap.

2) Both caps were made by the same manufacturer.

Anyway back to “Whyte (Grange Rovers)”! He looks to be John Jarvie Whyte who signed for East Stirlingshire from Grange Rovers having previously played for Airth Castle Rangers and Skinflats Rising Star. He played for East Stirlingshire in 1905/06 & 1906/07. He was born in Bothkennar in 1883 and was married in 1906. So this does not tie in exactly with the dates you have and is not a Thomas but on the other hand he would not be the first person to be known by a name that is not on their birth certificate.

Anyway some food for thought even if there are lots of ifs, buts and maybes!

Edited by bluedragon

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A contact has given me some helpful information on the possible Juvenile connections to the cap. Stirlingshire Juveniles had an annual match against Glasgow Juveniles at this time. Unfortunately newspaper reports were brief and there were no team line-ups.

From what I have found the 1904 match probably took place on either 7 May 1904 or a Saturday following closely after 14 May 1904 when Glasgow and Edinburgh Juveniles met at Atlas Park in Glasgow.

It appears that the Stirlingshire Juvenile Football Association only had the one representative match each season and that could account for the year (1904) rather than the season (1903/04) being embroidered on the cap.

So where does that leave us? The "S" in "SJFA 1904" almost certainly stands for "Stirlingshire" and perhaps "J" is more likely to be "Juvenile" as the "Junior" links do not quite match up with  the information known by TheRaithRover,

Edited by bluedragon

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Thanks bluedragon,

The history of it is sketchy to say the least. My mother told me it belonged to her grandmother's 1st husband who was definitely Thomas Whyte. It was then handed down to my maternal grandmother  who then gave it to my paternal grandfather as he "liked the fitba". They have all since died so I'm relying on bits of information from what my mother can remember but because it wasn't her actual grandfather there was less interest in its history. 

Thanks for taking the time to research it. I guess we'll never know exactly where it came from but Stirlingshire and Juvenile seem most likely given all you've uncovered.

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14 hours ago, TheRaithRover said:

Thanks bluedragon,

The history of it is sketchy to say the least. My mother told me it belonged to her grandmother's 1st husband who was definitely Thomas Whyte. It was then handed down to my maternal grandmother  who then gave it to my paternal grandfather as he "liked the fitba". They have all since died so I'm relying on bits of information from what my mother can remember but because it wasn't her actual grandfather there was less interest in its history. 

Thanks for taking the time to research it. I guess we'll never know exactly where it came from but Stirlingshire and Juvenile seem most likely given all you've uncovered.

TheRaithRover - It was a pleasure to try and help and to ask others for their assistance.

Another contact has been looking at this and has told me that the Scottish Juvenile Football Association match planned for Easter 1904 in Bradford was declined by the Bradford and District Association soon after it was suggested. This means that taken along with everything else we know  you can be reasonably confident to say that the cap was presented by the Stirlingshire Juvenile Football Association for the match against Glasgow Juveniles in May 1904.

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Here is an update on where we are in compiling definitive details of matches played by Junior Scotland since 1889.

We have so far identified 266 International matches and 128 other matches (benefits, games against county JFA selects, Senior clubs, etc.). Of those 6 were postponed/abandoned leaving 263 Internationals and 125 other games.

We have the players’ surnames for all the international matches but are missing names for 308 players in the other matches. In all we have identified 2,230 players who have played for Junior Scotland. We have worked to find forenames/initials of players not least to sort out the 34 “Browns” who have played. We now have a first initial or forename for all but 97 of those players. We are missing goalscorers for 91 of the 900 goals scored.

The information is drying up but is still flowing slowly! We are currently trying to identify the trainers who accompanied the team from the very early days as well as the team captains. From more recent times we are trying to fill gaps in the sequences of managers. We have not forgotten the referee and have listed those, where we can find them, as well.

We are close to having Version 3 available but if anyone thinks they can help please do let us know.  

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On 10/03/2018 at 11:35, bluedragon said:

For those of you following this thread here is a quick update.

We have identified 354 matches that cover internationals, county matches, benefit games and trials played by the SJFA XI. The information on the international matches is largely complete although we are missing some goal scorers from early matches and a few other bits and pieces. The main gaps are in the non-international matches where we know there are many more and of those we know about some line-ups are unknown and other details are sketchy.

In all the matches we have it produces a list of 2,033 players and of those we do not have a forename(s) or even a first initial for 102 .

We have had great help from posters here in the past and so I thought I would try again with the up-to-date list of these 102 players. As ever, any help will be very much appreciated.

I have divided the players into two lists – Present clubs and Defunct clubs. The lists are in alphabetical order of club and the year after each player’s name is the year they played for the SJFA XI.

A quick word on the definition of “Present” and “Defunct”.  I have taken this quite literally. So Girvan [1] is not today’s Girvan club that dates from 1944. Similarly Benburb [1] is an earlier club with the same name as today’s club. Although Mugiemoss was one of the two clubs that amalgamated to form Dyce FC I have treated it as defunct. Any mistakes in the definitions will be mine so do let me know.

PRESENT CLUBS

Arniston Rangers [2] - Mable  (1923)

Ashfield - Bain  (1912); Dewar  (1905); Dysart  (1901)

Blantyre Victoria - Hutchison  (1904); Robertson  (1915)

Bonnyrigg Rose Athletic - Easton  (1898)

Cambuslang Rangers [2] - McIntosh  (1921)

Darvel - Findlay  (1927); Nisbet  (1906)

Glasgow Perthshire - Bennie  (1927); Houston  (1899); Keith  (1926); Knox  (1927); McDonald  (1900); McKay  (1921)

Kilsyth Rangers [2] - Brown  (1922)

Maryhill - Johnstone  (1921)

Muirkirk - Grant  (1915)

Renfrew - Brown  (1916 & 1920)

Saltcoats Victoria (2) - Struthers  (1965)

Shettleston - Jamieson  (1924)

Vale of Clyde - Cunningham  (1899); Linnen  (1899); Smith  (1904); Whyte  (1898); Hillis  (1925)

Yoker Athletic - Kennedy  (1927); Prentice  (1891)

DEFUNCT CLUBS

Airdrieonians 'A' - McKinlay  (1896)

Argyll (Aberdeen) - Cotton  (1926)

Benburb [1] - Leslie  (1890)

Blantyre Celtic - Hannigan  (1924); Stewart  (1920)

Burnbank Athletic [1] - Wallace  (1897)

Burnbank Athletic [2] - Hunter  (1927); Thomson  (1920)

Cadzow Oak - McNair  (1901)

Cadzow St Anne's - McNulty  (1926)

Cambuslang Hibernian - McCue  (1896)

Captain Colt's Rovers - Boag  (1896)

Coalburn - Kerr  (1929)

Corporation Cleansing Department - Wilson  (1928)

Crown Athletic [1] - McCulloch  (1893); Young  (1895)

Dalry Primrose - McDonald  (1898)

Dalziel Rovers - Irvine  (1907); Johnston  (1901)

Denny Athletic - Buist  (1905)

Douglas Water Thistle - Henderson  (1913)

Drongan - Morrison  (1920)

Dumbarton Albion - Cairney  (1898)

Dunaskin Lads - Logan  (1921)

Dundee Arnot - Graham  (1908)

Dundee Harp - Donald  (1922)

Dunrobin Athletic - Taylor  (1890)

Duntocher Hibernian [1] - Grieve  (1904); Smith  (1899)

Earnock Rovers [2]  - Miller  (1909)

Edinburgh Renton [1] - Grant  (1897); Winton  (1899)

Edinburgh Rosebery - Hay  (1922); Short  (1922)

Errol - Scott  (1963)

Girvan (1) - Murray  (1920)

Grange Rovers - McIntosh  (1931); McNair  (1905)

Hamilton West End Rangers - Gray  (1889 & 1890); Rowan  (1889); Sneddon  (1890)

Harthill Athletic [1] - Halliday  (1897)

Kelburne - Murray  (1896)

Lenzie [2] - Grey  (1897)

Maryhill Myrtle - Shearer  (1893)

Milngavie - Kyle  (1890); Ross  (1891)

Moore Park - Hosie  (1897)

Mossend Celtic - McNamee  (1893)

Mugiemoss - Tough  (1911)

Muirkirk Ex-Service Athletic - Welsh  (1920)

Neilston Victoria - Gowans  (1906)

Nithsdale Wanderers - Hastings  (1963)

Old Kilpatrick [3] - Stewart  (1922)

Parkhead - Murray  (1898); Nicol  (1897)

Possilpark - McFarlane  (1889)

Renfrew Victoria - Campbell  (1904); Wylie  (1895)

Shotts United - Timmins  (1917)

St Johnstone YMCA - Paterson  (1926)

St Ninian's Thistle - Clark  (1908)

Stevenston Thistle - McMaster  (1917)

Stirling Emmet [2] - Walls  (1923)

Strathclyde [2] - Brown  (1903); Crum  (1898); Harley  (1900); Leslie  (1900); Martin  (1913); McMurray  (1927); Montgomery  (1897)

Thornliebank Juniors - Steveley  (1898)

Woodburn - Gibson  (1889)

The Arniston Rangers 1923 Player is my uncle Walter Mable, I have his SJ cap v. England played I believe in Aberdeen, I also have a newspaper report of a game that he played in v. Birmingham juniors. I've no idea if caps were awarded for that game. He is in the back row in front of the window.5c471cb822959_Scan_20181214(8).thumb.png.a3c195d798c2a04494492d844232d2d2.png5c471cc5b27c4_Scan_20181214(12).png.56f7fcfb139fbd1886af7ccedc8a81d4.png

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On 22/01/2019 at 13:40, JohnRM said:

The Arniston Rangers 1923 Player is my uncle Walter Mable, I have his SJ cap v. England played I believe in Aberdeen, I also have a newspaper report of a game that he played in v. Birmingham juniors. I've no idea if caps were awarded for that game. He is in the back row in front of the window.5c471cb822959_Scan_20181214(8).thumb.png.a3c195d798c2a04494492d844232d2d2.png5c471cc5b27c4_Scan_20181214(12).png.56f7fcfb139fbd1886af7ccedc8a81d4.png

Thank you very much for giving us a forename for one of our Junior Internationalists.

Your uncle played in the International against England at St Andrews, Birmingham on 21 April 1923 that Scotland lost 0:1 in front of a crowd of 6,000. He would have received a cap for that game.

Because there is not a direct equivalent to Junior football in England it was impossible to select a truly representative English team to play Junior Scotland. The SJFA had a long-standing arrangement with the Birmingham County FA to play matches against their representative team consisting of a mixture of players from Football League clubs (but that had not played League or FA Cup matches for their club) and players from local non-league clubs. The team was styled as “England”. The Birmingham FA had a Scot as a long-standing secretary who was key to the longevity of this annual fixture and ensuring competitive matches were played despite the different set-ups north and south of the border.

I was also interested in your reference to Aberdeen. The 1922 match against England (Birmingham FA) was played at Aberdeen. I looked at the team and reserves selected, together with a late replacement and the name of the travelling reserve (who would have been given a cap). However, I could not find any reference to your uncle being involved in this match. However, if you know more then I would be very happy to look further.

Many thanks for the two photographs.

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1 hour ago, bluedragon said:

Thank you very much for giving us a forename for one of our Junior Internationalists.

Your uncle played in the International against England at St Andrews, Birmingham on 21 April 1923 that Scotland lost 0:1 in front of a crowd of 6,000. He would have received a cap for that game.

Because there is not a direct equivalent to Junior football in England it was impossible to select a truly representative English team to play Junior Scotland. The SJFA had a long-standing arrangement with the Birmingham County FA to play matches against their representative team consisting of a mixture of players from Football League clubs (but that had not played League or FA Cup matches for their club) and players from local non-league clubs. The team was styled as “England”. The Birmingham FA had a Scot as a long-standing secretary who was key to the longevity of this annual fixture and ensuring competitive matches were played despite the different set-ups north and south of the border.

I was also interested in your reference to Aberdeen. The 1922 match against England (Birmingham FA) was played at Aberdeen. I looked at the team and reserves selected, together with a late replacement and the name of the travelling reserve (who would have been given a cap). However, I could not find any reference to your uncle being involved in this match. However, if you know more then I would be very happy to look further.

Many thanks for the two photographs.

I've only just come across this thread otherwise I would have posted sooner.

Unfortunately our name is often mis-spelt ,so you should look for variations, Moble, Mabel, Noble just to start, I've seen all of these ,I think in the Scottish football Historian.

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Just now, JohnRM said:

I've only just come across this thread otherwise I would have posted sooner.

Unfortunately our name is often mis-spelt ,so you should look for variations, Moble, Mabel, Noble just to start, I've seen all of these ,I think in the Scottish football Historian.

Alexander Smith has Noble of Arniston played for Junior Scotland against Ireland in the 1922-23 season.

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Sorry the photo quality is poor but the cap and shirt badge are behind glass.

Is it possible that SvE is Scotland versus Eire?

DSC_0606.JPG

DSC_0605.JPG

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7 hours ago, JohnRM said:

Sorry the photo quality is poor but the cap and shirt badge are behind glass.

Is it possible that SvE is Scotland versus Eire?

DSC_0606.JPG

DSC_0605.JPG

Many thanks for posting the photographs of the cap and the badge. I am sure this is your uncle's cap from the match against England in Birmingham on 21 April 1923.

Your Uncle was selected in the Reserve XI for the two earlier Junior Internationals in the 1922/23 season v Ireland (17 March 1923 at Dundee) and Wales (7 April 1923 at Bangor) before being selected for the team to play England in Birmingham on 21 April 1923. The Reserve XI was a shadow XI used to make replacements for any  call-offs in  the selected XI. So an injury to the left back in the week before the international would see the left back in the Reserve XI called up. One of the Reserve XI would be nominated as travelling reserve and would receive a cap. Your uncle was not called up to play against Ireland and Wales.

We also saw your uncle’s name recorded as “Noble” in one source but when we checked the newspapers of the day it was always correctly recorded as “Mable”.

The Scottish Junior Football Association did not play internationals against Irish Free State/Eire/Republic of Ireland until 1947. There were matches played before 1947 but it was the Scottish Junior Football League that provided the team but they did not start until 1927 and in any event that league’s membership only stretched as far east as Stirlingshire.

I am sorry for the long-winded reply but I think we have correctly identified the match in which your uncle played and won his Junior cap. Thank you once again for the post with his forename and the photographs. 

Edited by bluedragon

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7 hours ago, JohnRM said:

Sorry the photo quality is poor but the cap and shirt badge are behind glass.

Is it possible that SvE is Scotland versus Eire?

DSC_0606.JPG

DSC_0605.JPG

Wonderful memorabilia to have.

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