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bluedragon

Junior Internationals – questions, help, clarification, etc.

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Former Peasy right back and Junior Scotland captain Dougie Friedman passed away last week, his funeral takes place on Tuesday 22nd May at Daldowie Crematorium at 10.00 am.

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That is very sad news. Dougie Friedman won his first cap for Junior Scotland at the end of the 1977/78 season against Wales and then became a fixture in the side for the next three years  playing in four consecutive seasons. He played in eleven consecutive matches against international opposition. He played in at least one match against non-international opposition making a total of 12 matches.  He was appointed captain for his second international against the Republic of Ireland and went on to captain the team in at least seven matches.  Details of captains are sketchy but on the records we have Dougie captained Junior Scotland more than any other player.  

His international matches were:

England 1980, 1981

Northern Ireland 1978, 1980

Republic of Ireland 1978, 1979, 1980

Wales 1978, 1979, 1980, 1981

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Here is another list! 

This shows Junior players who were capped at:

1) Junior level and then went on to be capped at full international level [J/S followed by the Senior clubs played for when winning full caps]

2) both Junior and Amateur level when playing for a Junior club. [J/A]

3) Amateur level when playing for a Junior club. [A]

The players are grouped under their Junior club. Jock Brown appears twice. He won Junior caps whilst at Glenburn Rovers and Shawfield.

As ever, if anyone spots an error, has different information or has a question do please just let me know.

Parkhead (4)

George Key J/S (Heart of Midlothian)

Tommy Low J/S (Rangers)

James Raeside J/S (Third Lanark)

Andrew Richmond J/S (Queen's Park)

Arthurlie (3)

John Anderson J/S (Leicester City)

Andy Weir J/S (Motherwell)

Johnny Kelly J/S (Barnsley)

Ashfield (3)

Stevie Chalmers J/S (Celtic) - "Lisbon Lion"

Johnnie Crum J/S (Celtic)

Alistair McMillan J/A

Irvine Meadow XI (3)

Ian Prentice J/A - played for Amateur Scotland and Junior Scotland in games less than 24 hours apart.

Alan Johnstone J/A - Junior Scotland match against non-international opposition

Bobby Murray A

Maryhill (3)

Donald Colman J/S (Aberdeen)

Willie Lennie J/S (Aberdeen)

Charles Pringle J/S (St Mirren) - Junior Scotland match against non-international opposition

St Anthony's (3)

John Gilchrist J/S (Rangers)

Tommy McInally J/S (Celtic)

Jimmy Dunn J/S (Hibernian and Everton) - "Wembley Wizard"

Blantyre Celtic (2)

Jimmy Johnstone J/S (Celtic) - "Lisbon Lion"

Paul Wilson J/S (Celtic)

Bo’ness United (2)

Alex Scott J/S (Rangers & Everton)

Jim Scott J/S (Hibernian)

Glasgow Perthshire (2)

Jimmy Connor J/S (Sunderland)

James Lawrence J/S (Newcastle United)

Kilsyth Rangers (2)

Drew Jarvie J/S (Airdrieonians)

George Mulhall J/S (Aberdeen and Sunderland)

Mugiemoss (2)

Dougie Gray J/S (Rangers)

Benny Yorston J/S (Aberdeen)

Shawfield (2)

Jock Brown J/S (Clyde) - Father of Scottish Rugby Union Internationals Peter (“PC”) Brown and Gordon (“Broon frae Troon”) Brown.

Bobby Dougan J/S (Heart of Midlothian)

Benburb (1)

Victor Matassa A

Blantyre Victoria (1)

Jimmy Brownlie J/S (Third Lanark)

Bridgeton Waverley (1)

Pat Quinn J/S (Motherwell)

Burnbank Swifts (1)

Bob Foyers J/S (St Bernards)

Cambuslang Rangers (1)

Kenny Campbell J/S (Liverpool and Partick Thistle)

Carnoustie Panmure (1)

Jimmy Easson J/S (Portsmouth) - Junior Scotland match against non-international opposition

Cumbernauld United (1)

Kenny Dalglish J/S Celtic and Liverpool) - Junior Scotland matches against non-international opposition. European Cup winner with Liverpool.

Cumnock (1)

William Ritchie A

Dalry Primrose (1)

Bobby Walker J/S (Heart of Midlothian)

Darvel (1)

Nicol Smith J/S (Rangers)

Douglas Water Thistle (1)

Peter Nellies J/S (Heart of Midlothian) - Captained Scotland at Full International level.

Dundee North End (1)

Gordon Smith J/S (Hibernian) - Junior Scotland match against non-international opposition  and a member of the "Famous Five".

Dundee Violet (1)

Scot Symon J/S (Rangers) - played cricket for Scotland as well.

Duntocher Hibernian (2)

Pat Crerand J/S (Celtic and Manchester United) - European Cup winner with Manchester United.

Alan McFarlane A

East Kilbride Thistle (1)

Willie Pettigrew J/S (Motherwell)

Falkirk Juniors (1)

James Croal J/S (Falkirk)

Glenafton Athletic (1)

William Paton A

Glenbuck Athletic (1)

Willie Muir J/S (Dundee)

Glenburn Rovers (1)

Jock Brown J/S (Clyde) - Father of Scottish Rugby Union Internationals Peter (“PC”) Brown and Gordon (“Broon frae Troon”) Brown.

Greenock (1)

Jimmy Stewart A

Greenock Volunteers (1)

Harry Rennie J/S (Heart of Midlothian and Hibernian)

Johnstone Burgh (1)

Billy McDerment A

Kilmarnock Rugby XI (1)

Bobby Templeton J/S (Aston Villa, Newcastle United, Woolwich Arsenal and Kilmarnock)

Kilwinning Rangers (1)

Robert Beattie J/S (Preston North End)

Lanark United (1)

Tommy Barr A

Longriggend Wanderers (1)

Hugh Morgan J/S (St Mirren and Liverpool)

Minerva (1)

David Stewart J/S (Queen's Park) - Junior Scotland match against non-international opposition

Neilston (1)

Dixie Deans J/S (Celtic)

Newmilns (1)

Andrew Cunningham J/S (Rangers) - Captained Scotland at Full International level.

Newtongrange Star (1)

Dave Mackay J/S (Heart of Midlothian and Tottenham Hotspur)

Port Glasgow Athletic Juniors (1)

Matt Armstrong J/S (Aberdeen)

Renfrew Victoria (1)

Jimmy Gordon J/S (Rangers)

Royal Albert (1)

Bobby Hogg J/S (Celtic)

Rutherglen Glencairn (1)

Alexander Bennett J/S (Celtic and Rangers) - His grandson is Sandy Carmichael, Scotland rugby international and British Lion.

Shotts Bon Accord (1)

Brian Martin J/S (Motherwell)

South Western (1)

Jack Fyfe J/S (Third Lanark)

St Roch's (1)

Jim Brogan J/S (Celtic) - Junior Scotland match against non-international opposition. 

Thorniewood United (1)

Eddie O’Neil A

Tranent (1)

Lindsay Finlayson A

Troon (1)

Gordon Armstrong A

Vale of Clyde (1)

James Hamilton J/S (St Mirren)

Wallyford Bluebell (1)

Danny Liddle J/S (East Fife)

Yoker Athletic (1)

Ian Wallace J/S (Coventry City)

 

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For those of you interested and/or given help in the past on this thread here is another update and yet another request for help.

We have now found 376 matches played by a SJFA XI team that include internationals, benefit matches, matches against county select teams, tour matches, etc. We have the names of 2,141 players and forenames for the vast majority. We are missing the names of 300 players where we have match details but not the line-up. We have the names of 90% of the Scottish goalscorers. We are on the way to publishing the third version of the Excel spreadsheet and if anyone has any specific questions on what we have for their club we would be very happy to try and give an answer.

There is no such thing as a free lunch! Here is the request for help!

In the early years of the Second World War the SJFA put out select teams often to help raise funds for war-time appeals. The players involved were a mixture of young players, servicemen on leave, players in reserve occupations (mines/shipyards) etc. Some of these are proving difficult to find a forename/nickname as the war may have robbed them of their best footballing years and they did not re-appear in Junior or Senior football when football was re-established after the end of hostilities. On ther other hand we have come across one or two players from the English Football League who were able to play Junior football under emergency regulations if they were stationed in Scotland. If anyone can help with any of the names on this list it would, as always, be very much appreciated. Here is a list from matches played in 1941.

TODAY'S CLUBS

Armadale Thistle

Banks

Keenan

Arthurlie

Hynd

Benburb

Brooks

Clydebank Juniors (treated as today’s Clydebank for these purposes)

Grassie

Hall Russell's

Baxter

Petershill

Charles

Kerr

McCreadie

DEFUNCT CLUBS

Coatbridge St Patrick's

C Quinn

Elmwood (Dundee)

McKay

Hillside United (Angus)

Wilson

ITC (Aberdeen - possibly a college?)

Lawson

Edited by bluedragon

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53 minutes ago, gogsy said:

Thanks Gogsy. That’s it! It was the Infantry Training Centre for the Cameronians, Highland Light Infantry and Gordon Highlanders based at the Gordon Barracks in Bridge of Don. The newspapers of the day say they played their part in the sport in the city with their short-lived Junior team together with Rugby Union and cricket teams.

Thank you.

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Found this in the Norway v Scotland programme from 1954 if it helps fill some gaps

image.thumb.jpeg.7c8397f5be9a76b3ba0b811957baaa79.jpeg

 

Edited by Burnie_man

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On 11/07/2018 at 12:40, Burnie_man said:

Found this in the Norway v Scotland programme from 1954 if it helps fill some gaps

image.thumb.jpeg.7c8397f5be9a76b3ba0b811957baaa79.jpeg

 

Thank you very much for posting this. The 1920 tour was by the Scottish Junior League, with the Scottish Junior Football Association touring in 1921 and the Central League in 1933. The 1921 tour information is initially of great interest as it gives us a "missing" result for our Junior Scotland records.  Also the opposition and venue are given for each match. The names of the opponents in the Scottish  newspapers of the time  were inconsistent and so this will help sort them out.  

Thank you.

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We are now trying to find matches where a Junior Scotland team played in games to celebrate  anniversaries of clubs, leagues, football associations, towns, in fact, anything! So far we have 14 such matches but feel that there may well be more. If anyone can help add to the list it would be very appreciated. Here is the current list of matches:

1944 v Western League (Western League Silver Jubilee)

1952 v Banks o' Dee (Golden Jubilee of Banks o' Dee FC)

1952 v Perthshire Junior Football Association (Perthshire JFA Jubilee)

1968 v Bo'ness United (Tercentenary of the town)

1970 v Lanark United (Lanark United FC's Golden Jubilee)

1971 v Secondary Juvenile XI (The Scottish Secondary Juvenile FA 50th Anniversary)

1974 v Central League XI (Vale of Clyde FC centenary)

1978 v Arniston Rangers (Arniston Rangers FC centenary)

1985 v East of Scotland Junior Football Association (Centenary of Junior football in the East of Scotland)

1989 v Central League Select (Ayrshire JFA Centenary Tournament)

1989 v North Ayrshire Select (Ayrshire JFA Centenary Tournament)

1994 v North Wales Coast FA (NWCFA Centenary)

1995 v Camelon (Camelon FC 75th Anniversary)

1997 v Irvine Meadow XI (Irvine Meadow XI FC centenary)

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Here is our latest list (in rank order) of the thirty players who have  played the most matches for Junior Scotland. The number of games shown after each player are: Total matches – International matches – Other matches. As ever, please raise  any questions, etc. 

1 Davie Fulton (Arthurlie) 22-12-10

2 Tommy Ure (Linlithgow Rose) 18-12-6

=3 Derek McCulloch (Auchinleck Talbot) 16-11-5

=3 Bryan Smith (Petershill & Shettleston) 16-9-7

5 Alex Hendrie (Shotts Bon Accord) 15-12-3

=6 Norrie Fulton (Johnstone Burgh, Petershill & Pollok) 14-12-2

=6 Bert McNab (Petershill) 14-13-1

=6 Jackie Myles (Bonnyrigg Rose) 14-13-1

=6 Billy Spence (Kelty Hearts & Hill of Beath Hawthorn) 14-6-8

=6 Steven Stewart (Tayport) 14-8-6

=11 Gavin Duncan (Arthurlie) 13-8-5

=11 Dougie Freedman (Petershill & Cambuslang Rangers) 13-11-2

=11 Tommy Reynolds (Cumnock) 13-9-4

=11 Duncan Sinclair (Lesmahagow & Cumnock) 13-9-4

=15 John Chalmers (Lesmahagow) 12-10-2

=15 Bryan Dingwall (Maryhill & Pollok) 12-10-2

=15 Robert Downs (Arthurlie & Pollok) 12-11-1

=15 Dennis Gray (Auchinleck Talbot) 12-8-4

=19 Joe Carruth (Glenafton Athletic & Pollok) 11-9-2

=19 Gary Graham (Beith Juniors & Auchinleck Talbot) 11-7-4

=19 Ronnie Lowrie (Blantyre Victoria & Baillieston) 11-8-3

=19 Iain Ross (Lochee United) 11-10-1

=19 Willie Young (Auchinleck Talbot) 11-11-0

=24 Chris McKenzie (Camelon) 10-6-4

=24 Iain Ashcroft (Arthurlie & Pollok) 10-7-3

=24 Raymond Day (Cumnock) 10-9-1

=24 Marc Graham (Hill of Beath Hawthorn) 10-7-3

=24 Davie Mair (Stonehouse Violet) 10-8-2

=24 Mike McManus (Lochee Harp) 10-5-5

=24 Derek Wingate (Benburb & Irvine Meadow XI) 10-7-3

Edited by bluedragon

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Is the link on the sfha website corrupt? Any time I try to open it up its just weird.

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9 hours ago, gogsy said:

Is the link on the sfha website corrupt? Any time I try to open it up its just weird.

Gogsy – thank you for letting me know. I have just tried the link on the front page and was able to download a copy.

http://scottish-football-historical-archive.co.nf/

However, if you still have no luck and would like a copy send me a PM.

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Here is another list! This is a list of the top ten clubs whose players have made the most appearances for Junior Scotland. The details are:

Rank – club – total matches – internationals – others – number of players – player(s) who played the most matches.

From the players in  this list we are still looking for some forenames.  Can anyone help please? They are:

Pollok - Crawford – was playing in 1942.

Petershill - Charles & McCreadie – both playing in 1941.

Cambuslang Rangers - Brown & Kerr – both playing in 1916, McIntosh – was playing in 1921 and Mooney – was playing in 1950.

Here is the list.

1 Pollok 167-125-42-56-Bryan Dingwall & Danny Diver (9)

2 Arthurlie 139-94-45-46-Davie Fulton (22)

3 Auchinleck Talbot 127-100-27-34-Derek McCulloch (16)

4 Petershill 121-91-30-51-Bert McNab (14)

5 Linlithgow Rose 108-86-22-40-Tommy Ure (18)

6 Irvine Meadow XI 95-67-28-42-Willie Niven (9)

7 Cumnock 88-66-22-32-Tommy Reynolds (13)

8 Glenafton Athletic 83-62-21-26-Joe Carruth (9)

9 Bo'ness United 82-73-9-30-Lex Shields & Andrew Dunleavie (9)

10 Cambuslang Rangers 81-63-18-41-Bobby Brown (8)

If anyone has any corrections, questions, etc. do just let us know.

 

Edited by bluedragon

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On 8/18/2018 at 09:10, bluedragon said:

Here is another list! This is a list of the top ten clubs whose players have made the most appearances for Junior Scotland. The details are:

Rank – club – total matches – internationals – others – number of players – player(s) who played the most matches.

From the players in  this list we are still looking for some forenames.  Can anyone help please? They are:

Pollok - Crawford – was playing in 1942.

Petershill - Charles & McCreadie – both playing in 1941.

Cambuslang Rangers - Brown & Kerr – both playing in 1916, McIntosh – was playing in 1921 and Mooney – was playing in 1950.

Here is the list.

1 Pollok 167-125-42-56-Bryan Dingwall & Danny Diver (9)

2 Arthurlie 139-94-45-46-Davie Fulton (22)

3 Auchinleck Talbot 127-100-27-34-Derek McCulloch (16)

4 Petershill 121-91-30-51-Bert McNab (14)

5 Linlithgow Rose 108-86-22-40-Tommy Ure (18)

6 Irvine Meadow XI 95-67-28-42-Willie Niven (9)

7 Cumnock 88-66-22-32-Tommy Reynolds (13)

8 Glenafton Athletic 83-62-21-26-Joe Carruth (9)

9 Bo'ness United 82-73-9-30-Lex Shields & Andrew Dunleavie (9)

10 Cambuslang Rangers 81-63-18-41-Bobby Brown (8)

If anyone has any corrections, questions, etc. do just let us know.

 

Pretty certain Bryan Dingwall won six of his caps while playing for us - the Quadrangular in 03 and 05? I'm sure he didn't move to Pollok until maybe 06.

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On 30/08/2018 at 22:04, Hillonearth said:

Pretty certain Bryan Dingwall won six of his caps while playing for us - the Quadrangular in 03 and 05? I'm sure he didn't move to Pollok until maybe 06.

Thanks for querying that. We have Bryan playing in three Quadrangular Tournaments but they were 2005, 2008 and 2010. What we have ties in  with Bryan moving to Pollok in around 2006. This is what we have.

2004/05 season (3 matches)

Maryhill player - 2005 Quadrangular Tournament held at the end of the 2004/05 season - Northern Ireland, Republic of Ireland (used sub) and Isle of Man.

2005/06 season

No matches played by Junior Scotland.

2006/07 season (1 match)

Pollok player - Republic of Ireland.

2007/08 season (4 matches)

Pollok player – Petershill (opening new ground), Republic of Ireland and 2008 Quadrangular Tournament held at the end of the 2007/08 season - Isle of Man and Republic of Ireland (sub).

2008/09 season (1 match)

Pollok player - Auchinleck Talbot (Testimonial match for Stuart McIntosh).

2009/10 season (3 matches)

Pollok player - 2010 Quadrangular Tournament held at the end of the 2009/10 season - Northern Ireland, Isle of Man (sub) & Republic of Ireland (captain).

Edited by bluedragon

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Another request for help!  Here is a list of clubs where we are still trying to find a forename or even a first initial. of a player(s) who played for Junior Scotland. The (I) after a player’s name indicates that they played in an international match and the year in brackets is the year(s) they played for Junior Scotland. This is a slightly different list than I have posted before as we have had some success that has let us take some players off the list but on the other hand some other non-international matches have come to light giving us some new names. Most of the line-ups have been taken from newspaper reports and if anyone finds a player with a slightly different spelling please let us know as it could be “our man”.

Ardrossan Winton Rovers - White (1961)

Armadale Thistle - Keenan (1941)

Ashfield - Coventry (1893); Smart (1911); Bain (I) (1912); Dewar (I) (1905); Dysart (I) (1901)

Blantyre Victoria - Hutchison (I) (1904); Robertson (I) (1915)

Cambuslang Rangers - Kerr (1916); McIntosh (I) (1921)

Carnoustie Panmure - Brown (1908)

Cumnock - McCraken (1921); McKeown (1950)

Dalry Thistle [2] - Carroll (1921)

Darvel - Findlay (I) (1927); Nisbet (I) (1906)

Dundee Violet - Young (1916)

Fauldhouse United - Crossan (1920)

Glasgow Perthshire - Leslie (1901); Abrams (1926); Bennie (I) (1927); Keith (I) (1926); Menzies (1926); McDonald (I)  (1900); McKay  (1921)

Hall Russell's - Baxter (1941)

Kilbirnie Ladeside - Carroce (1920)

Kirriemuir Thistle - Ross (1961)

Lochee Harp - Robb (1961)

Maryhill - Johnstone (1921)

Petershill - Charles (1941)

Renfrew - Brown (I) (1916 & 1920)

Shettleston - Cassidy (1911); Jamieson (I) (1924)

Vale of Clyde - Weeks (1893); Whyte (I) (1898); Cunningham (I) (1899); Smith (I) (1904)

Vale of Leven - O'Hare (1920)

Yoker Athletic - Kennedy (I) (1927); Hillis (I) (1925)

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I am trying to find a photograph of a former Junior Internationalist that I would be able to use in an article (with acknowledgement of course).  I have several photographs of him in Junior Scotland team line-ups but I am looking for an individual portrait, club line-up or action photograph.

The player is Davie Mair who played in the immediate post-War years until the mid-1950’s. He started off at Larkhall Thistle before a short spell at Falkirk. He was reinstated as a Junior at Lesmahagow before moving on to Stonehouse Violet where he was capped.

Of course, if anyone has any other information on him, apart from a photograph, I would be very pleased to hear from you.

Thank you.

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Funeral service of Jimmy Seivewright tomorrow, 26th Sept at Lambhill Crematorium. Winner of a number of junior caps with Baillieston and Kilsyth, mid 1950's.  A great defender and hugely influential in our Scotish cup win in 1955.

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2 hours ago, garrellburn said:

Funeral service of Jimmy Seivewright tomorrow, 26th Sept at Lambhill Crematorium. Winner of a number of junior caps with Baillieston and Kilsyth, mid 1950's.  A great defender and hugely influential in our Scotish cup win in 1955.

That is very sad news.

Jimmy Sievewright played for Junior Scotland 9 times and all against International opposition. Jimmy was on the winning side in all but one match. With 9 caps he won only four less than the record cap holders Bert McNab (Petershill) and Jackie Myles (Bonnyrigg Rose).

He made his debut as a Baillieston player playing two matches in 1954 before moving to Kilsyth Rangers. He captained the team on four occasions. He played in 7 successive internationals and but for injury forcing him out of matches against the Republic of Ireland in 1956 and 1957 it would have been eleven consecutive matches in all games from 1953/54 to 1956/57 seasons inclusive.

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