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Junior Internationals – questions, help, clarification, etc.


bluedragon

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  • 3 weeks later...
On 17/01/2020 at 05:39, bluedragon said:

Can anyone help us put names to faces in this photograph of the Junior Scotland party taken prior to the international against England at St Andrews, Birmingham on Saturday 8 April 1933? 

There are 13 people wearing caps presented for the match. To complicate matters they do not appear to be sitting in position order and the caps makes it more difficult to identify them by hair styles.  For those who went Senior  they would be relative young in this photograph so adding a further complication.

Counting the back row as Row 1 then in Row 1 I think the person fourth in from the left is DS Beaton, an official at Dundee Violet who travelled with the party. In Row 2 is goalkeeper Archie Gourlay.  One of the two others in Row 2 who are both wearing suits is Duncan Erskine who was the travelling reserve. The other is the trainer who might be T Wallace (Bridgeton Waverley).  In Row 3 with his hands on the shoulders of his team mate in front is Jimmy Briggs. That is as far as we have got!  Can anyone help please?

Here is the team in position order:

Archibald J Gourlay (Dunipace Juniors) – identified.

Duncan F McClure (Parkhead) – went Senior with Heart of Midlothian.

John McDonald (Bonnyrigg Rose Athletic)

Robert "Bobby" Corrance (Renfrew) (Captain) – went Senior and played for East Stirlingshire, Falkirk and Albion Rovers.

William Lyon (Kirkintilloch Rob Roy) – played for Queen’s Park and Celtic and captained the Scotland party on a tour of North America in 1939.

Malcolm McDonald (Tranent)

Hugh Naughton (Larkhall Thistle)

James "Jimmy" Briggs (Dundee Violet) – identified.

Alastair R McKillop (Rosslyn) – played briefly for Raith Rovers and Armadale.

Harry Duffy (Yoker Athletic)

Richard "Dicky" Boag (Lochee Harp) – later went Senior mainly played for Cowdenbeath

Travelling reserve: Duncan C Erskine (Alyth United)

Thank you.

Scotland v England 1933 team photograph.jpg

 

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On 09/10/2021 at 22:39, tamthebam said:

Popped into the Edinburgh City Social Club for the first time in months and here's the Junior Scotland shirt and cap they have on display as I promised I'd take a photo of:

IMG_20211009_185932360.thumb.jpg.bcde11ce0b16c88570accbbaab94dd6e.jpg

Thank you for posting a photograph of the international shirt and cap.

James Porteous was an inside right and had previously played for Bo’ness United and Edinburgh City but was at West Calder United when he played in all three Junior Internationals in the 1950-51 season.   

On 6 January 1951 he played in an international trial match at Volunteer Park, Armadale for West Lothian against Mid & East Lothian.  He was then selected for the match against Northern Ireland on 17 February at Firhill that ended in a 4-4 draw.  He retained his place and was in the team that travelled to Dalymount Park, Dublin on 25 March and he scored a goal in 4-3 win. The final international was against Wales at Rugby Park, Kilmarnock on 7 April and was another draw with James scoring again.

Here are the full details of the match relating to the shirt and cap.

DATE: 7 April 1951

GROUND: Rugby Park, Kilmarnock (Kilmarnock FC)

ATTENDANCE: 6,658

RESULT: Scotland (Scottish Junior FA) 1 (1) Wales (North Wales Coast FA) 1 (1)

GOALSCORERS: J Porteous (Scotland) 6m & J M Jones (Wales) 25 m.

REFEREE: Alex McClintock (Bishopbriggs)

SCOTLAND:

Team: Jocky Robertson (Armadale Thistle); Willie Pryde (Newtongrange Star) & Bert McNab (Petershill); Jimmy Hogg (Bo'ness United), Ian Gordon (Kilsyth Rangers) & Willie Niven (Irvine Meadow XI);  James Smellie (Duntocher Hibernian), Jimmy Porteous (West Calder United), Willie Gardiner (Bo'ness United), Jimmy Goldthorpe (Kilbirnie Ladeside) & Robert Balderstone (Armadale Thistle).

Travelling reserve: Bob Pearson (Bridgeton Waverley)

Trainer: not confirmed but possibly Peter Gavigan (Luncarty)

WALES :

Team: A Pierce (Rhyl); M Evans (Bangor City) & O Morris (Pwllheli); A Parr (Llandudno), J Rodgers (Rhyl) & H Roberts (Colwyn Bay); B Morrey (Holywell Town), S G Griffiths (Bangor Normal College & Llandudno Junction), D Spendlove (Rhyl), R T Moody (Penmaenmawr) & J M Jones (Bangor City & RAF).

Travelling reserve: not known

Manager: Captain C R Tucker

Trainer: George Halden (Bangor City)

 

Edited by bluedragon
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13 hours ago, Kieran Biggins said:

Hugh Naughton (my uncle) is seated in Row 3 between the older gentleman in the suit and Jimmy Briggs who has his hands on the shoulders of the player sitting on the ground. Hope this helps you!

Thank you very much for making a positive identification that is a great help.

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  • 2 weeks later...

Can anyone help with information from the following matches involving Highland League Select & Scottish Junior International Select.  The matches in question are as follows:  

01 May 1982                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            24 Apr 1983                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            04 Mar 1997                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              12  Dec 1999

Any help would be much appreciated.   Regards.  Ian.

Ian Davidson 

Highland League Historian

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On 09/11/2021 at 21:40, I.Davidson said:

Can anyone help with information from the following matches involving Highland League Select & Scottish Junior International Select.  The matches in question are as follows:  

01 May 1982                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            24 Apr 1983                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            04 Mar 1997                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              12  Dec 1999

Any help would be much appreciated.   Regards.  Ian.

Ian Davidson 

Highland League Historian

Here are the details of those matches that we have from our research.


Date: 1 May 1982 

Result: Highland League 1 (?) Junior Scotland 0 (?)

Ground: Victoria Park, Buckie 

Referee: Sandy Roy (Elgin)

We have the names of the 16 players and manager in the Junior Scotland squad if you need that detail. We are looking for an approximate attendance and half-time score. We also do not know who captained the Junior Scotland team.

Date: 24 Apr 1983

Result: Highland League 1 (1) Junior Scotland 2 (0)  

Junior Scotland scorers: Martin Allan (Banks o’Dee) Jackie Myles (Bonnyrigg Rose)

Ground: Westview Park, Kirriemuir

We are missing the referee and an approximate attendance.  We have the names of the 19 players and manager in the Junior Scotland squad.

Date: 4 Mar 1997 

Result: Highland League 0 (0) Junior Scotland 1 (1)  

Ground: Allan Park, Aberdeen

Result: Junior Scotland scorers: Danny Diver (Pollok)

Referee Sandy Roy (Westhill)

We are missing an approximate attendance and we do not know who captained the Junior Scotland team. We have the names of the 16 players and manager in the Junior Scotland squad.

Date: 12 Dec 1999

This match was due to be played at North End Park, Dundee but was cancelled due to Junior Cup club commitments. The SJFA did not get as far as selecting a team before it was called off.

We also have two earlier matches between the two select teams played on 3 May 1980 and 5 April 1981.
 

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Thank you for posting the photographs of the excellent display of Junior caps and the story behind each one.

For his time Stanley (we understand that he was known by his middle name) Henderson had a long Junior Scotland career stretching over 5 seasons before he signed for Raith Rovers. He won one more cap (1928 v England) and was travelling reserve against England in 1930.  Performances in previous seasons counted for little and each season he would have had to earn a place through a series of trial matches involving the next batch of up-and-coming centre halves. Unfortunately for Stanley he was seriously injured early in the 1926 match against England. With the consent of the England officials, George Gardiner (Blantyre Celtic) replaced him.

Newtongrange Star players have won 47 Junior International caps making the club 17th equal in the all-time list of clubs.  In the East only Linlithgow Rose (86), Bo’ness United (74), Bonnyrigg Rose (62) are ahead of them while Camelon are equal on 47.

Here are the other 16 Star players who were capped: David Anderson (1920), John Coughlin (1989 & 1990), Bobby Forrest (1992 & 1993), Gordon Fraser (1990 & 1991), Damien Gielty (2010), Freddie Glidden (1948), Steve Hancock (1971), Jim Hastie (1971), Andrew Higgins (1957), John Hislop (1978 & 1980), Dave Mackay (1953), John McPherson (1930), Bobby Prentice (1972), Willie Pryde (1951), Paul Ramsay (1988) and James Young (1949).

Edited by bluedragon
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  • 1 year later...
On 18/11/2022 at 22:33, WilliamWilkerson said:

There was a right back capped three times in 1924 called Westwater who was playing for Dunipace. Is that an earlier generation?

 

George “Geordie” Westwater (Dunipace) won three international caps at right back in 1924 and then also played for Junior Scotland against the Glasgow Junior League in 1927.  It was reported that he was the youngest of 19 children.

George had three sons who also played at right back.  They were Willie (Kilsyth Rangers), James (Benburb) and George (Denistoun Waverley).  Willie played five times for Junior Scotland, three International matches and two other games.  I believe that Alan Westwater who was capped by Australia in the 1960’s, including matches against Scotland, is Willie’s son.

Going further back, and assuming that there may be a connection, in 1908 John Westwater (Dunipace) captained Junior Scotland against the Aberdeenshire Junior Football Association

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4 hours ago, bluedragon said:

George “Geordie” Westwater (Dunipace) won three international caps at right back in 1924 and then also played for Junior Scotland against the Glasgow Junior League in 1927.  It was reported that he was the youngest of 19 children.

George had three sons who also played at right back.  They were Willie (Kilsyth Rangers), James (Benburb) and George (Denistoun Waverley).  Willie played five times for Junior Scotland, three International matches and two other games.  I believe that Alan Westwater who was capped by Australia in the 1960’s, including matches against Scotland, is Willie’s son.

Going further back, and assuming that there may be a connection, in 1908 John Westwater (Dunipace) captained Junior Scotland against the Aberdeenshire Junior Football Association

Off topic a bit but Alan Westwater’s family emigrated to Australia in the 50’s before he returned for a few seasons with Stirling Albion. His Australian debut was against Scotland in 1967 and he played in all 3 games. Not all his games for Australia were full internationals. Below from www.o Football.net

 

 

Westwater, George Alan
Date of Birth: 26-Mar-46, Bridge of Allan, Scotland
Position: Midfielder

Socceroo Honours
Total - 16 apps. 3 gls.
1967 - Scotland, Scotland, Scotland, New Zealand, South Vietnam, Singapore (1 goal), Malaysia, South Korea, Indonesia, Indonesia (sub), Singapore (1 goal), Combined Services (1 goal), Malaysia
1968 - Japan, Japan, Japan

New South Wales Representative Honours

Playing Record
1962 - Bankstown (NSW Div 1)
1963/4 - Stirling Albion (Scotland) 14 app. 2 gls.
1964/5 - Stirling Albion (Scotland) 10 app. 4 gls.
1965/6 - Stirling Albion (Scotland) 17 app. 2 gls.
1966 - Pan Hellenic (NSW Div 1)
1967 - Pan Hellenic (NSW Div 1)
1968 - Pan Hellenic (NSW Div 1)

I’m assuming this is his father.

Westwater, William
Date of Birth: 1921, Scotland
Passed Away: 18-Jul-85
Position: 

Playing Record
1946/7 - Morton (Scotland) 12 app. 1 gls.
1947/8 - Morton (Scotland) 4 app. 0 gls.
1948/9 - Morton (Scotland) 16 app. 0 gls.
1949/50 - Morton (Scotland) 24 app. 0 gls.
1950/1 - Morton (Scotland) 3 app. 0 gls.
1951/2 - Morton (Scotland) 10 app. 0 gls.
1952/3 - Dundee (Scotland) 0 app.
1953/4 - Dundee United (Scotland) 3 app. 0 gls.

Bankstown (NSW Div 1)

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18 hours ago, Eednud said:

Off topic a bit but Alan Westwater’s family emigrated to Australia in the 50’s before he returned for a few seasons with Stirling Albion. His Australian debut was against Scotland in 1967 and he played in all 3 games. Not all his games for Australia were full internationals. Below from www.o Football.net

 

 

Westwater, George Alan
Date of Birth: 26-Mar-46, Bridge of Allan, Scotland
Position: Midfielder

Socceroo Honours
Total - 16 apps. 3 gls.
1967 - Scotland, Scotland, Scotland, New Zealand, South Vietnam, Singapore (1 goal), Malaysia, South Korea, Indonesia, Indonesia (sub), Singapore (1 goal), Combined Services (1 goal), Malaysia
1968 - Japan, Japan, Japan

New South Wales Representative Honours

Playing Record
1962 - Bankstown (NSW Div 1)
1963/4 - Stirling Albion (Scotland) 14 app. 2 gls.
1964/5 - Stirling Albion (Scotland) 10 app. 4 gls.
1965/6 - Stirling Albion (Scotland) 17 app. 2 gls.
1966 - Pan Hellenic (NSW Div 1)
1967 - Pan Hellenic (NSW Div 1)
1968 - Pan Hellenic (NSW Div 1)

I’m assuming this is his father.

Westwater, William
Date of Birth: 1921, Scotland
Passed Away: 18-Jul-85
Position: 

Playing Record
1946/7 - Morton (Scotland) 12 app. 1 gls.
1947/8 - Morton (Scotland) 4 app. 0 gls.
1948/9 - Morton (Scotland) 16 app. 0 gls.
1949/50 - Morton (Scotland) 24 app. 0 gls.
1950/1 - Morton (Scotland) 3 app. 0 gls.
1951/2 - Morton (Scotland) 10 app. 0 gls.
1952/3 - Dundee (Scotland) 0 app.
1953/4 - Dundee United (Scotland) 3 app. 0 gls.

Bankstown (NSW Div 1)

This is now becoming confusing with so many Westwaters and many played at full back!  The William Westwater you have listed playing for Morton is the father of Alan Westwater, the Australian International.  However, the references to him playing for the two Dundee clubs is, I believe, another Willie Westwater.

Here is what I think(!) are the careers of the two Willie Westwater full backs.

William Westwater (Alan’s father) – I have two dates of birth (circa. 1921 & 5 June 1925) and I do not which is which.  He died on 9 March 2007 in Australia.  He joined Morton in March 1943 from Dunipace Thistle.  During the Second World War he played occasionally for Dundee with Morton’s consent. He was released by Morton in April 1953 and was reinstated as a Junior and joined Kilsyth Rangers.  He won a Junior Cup winners’ medal with the club in 1955.  He was not capped by Junior Scotland.  He then emigrated to Australia and first played for Canterbury in 1956-57 and then moved on to Bankstown for the following season.

William Westwater  – As above I am not sure of his date of birth.  I believe he died on 18 July 1985.  I believe he played a trial match in 1942 for Dundee United.  He played for Dunipace and won three Junior International caps in the 1951-52 season.  He was on Dundee’s books in 1952-53 but did not play any first team games.  He signed for Dundee United in August 1953.  He played 10 matches before being released in January 1954 and emigrating to Canada.

If anyone can help please do!

 

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  • 6 months later...
On 25/11/2022 at 17:00, bluedragon said:

This is now becoming confusing with so many Westwaters and many played at full back!  The William Westwater you have listed playing for Morton is the father of Alan Westwater, the Australian International.  However, the references to him playing for the two Dundee clubs is, I believe, another Willie Westwater.

Here is what I think(!) are the careers of the two Willie Westwater full backs.

William Westwater (Alan’s father) – I have two dates of birth (circa. 1921 & 5 June 1925) and I do not which is which.  He died on 9 March 2007 in Australia.  He joined Morton in March 1943 from Dunipace Thistle.  During the Second World War he played occasionally for Dundee with Morton’s consent. He was released by Morton in April 1953 and was reinstated as a Junior and joined Kilsyth Rangers.  He won a Junior Cup winners’ medal with the club in 1955.  He was not capped by Junior Scotland.  He then emigrated to Australia and first played for Canterbury in 1956-57 and then moved on to Bankstown for the following season.

William Westwater  – As above I am not sure of his date of birth.  I believe he died on 18 July 1985.  I believe he played a trial match in 1942 for Dundee United.  He played for Dunipace and won three Junior International caps in the 1951-52 season.  He was on Dundee’s books in 1952-53 but did not play any first team games.  He signed for Dundee United in August 1953.  He played 10 matches before being released in January 1954 and emigrating to Canada.

If anyone can help please do!

 

Dunno if this is any help, it's likely you've already seen it - may be quite inaccurate but sometimes these sort of things includes a family account that clears up some inaccuracies. It basically states that Alan Westwater's father played only for Dunipace til 1952, then Kilsyth Rangers until emigrating in 1956. So that would mean that all the SFL appearances were by the other Willie,but maybe they just aren't aware of the wartime Dundee stuff...

 

https://kilsythrangersfc.webs.com/tributetowilliewestwater.htm

Edited by BuddyZero
Forgot the url!
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5 hours ago, BuddyZero said:

Dunno if this is any help, it's likely you've already seen it - may be quite inaccurate but sometimes these sort of things includes a family account that clears up some inaccuracies. It basically states that Alan Westwater's father played only for Dunipace til 1952, then Kilsyth Rangers until emigrating in 1956. So that would mean that all the SFL appearances were by the other Willie,but maybe they just aren't aware of the wartime Dundee stuff...

 

https://kilsythrangersfc.webs.com/tributetowilliewestwater.htm

Thank you for the information.  I have had another look at this.  I have also found that they were cousins.  I think that the Willie Westwater who played for Morton was born in 1925 and the Willie Westwater in the Kilsyth Rangers tribute was born around 1933.  I am therefore sure you are correct that Alan's father only played as a Junior and I have mistakenly given some of the other Willie Westwater's football career to him.  I will now try and sort this out.

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