Junior Internationals – questions, help, clarification, etc.

[Saints1921]

1 hour ago, Karl Berg said:

I’m almost certain they were different players, but will let others who know better confirm. 

Many thanks, much appreciated.  I'll maybe ask on the Linlithgow thread just in case.  Cheers again, DG

[bluedragon]

On 21/02/2019 at 20:35, Saints1921 said:

Many thanks, much appreciated.  I'll maybe ask on the Linlithgow thread just in case.  Cheers again, DG

The Linlithgow Rose player is Norman James Brown (dob 23 July 1950) and the player you have mentioned I am fairly sure is Norman George Brown (dob 25 October 1957). 

I hope this helps.

[Saints1921]

6 hours ago, bluedragon said:

The Linlithgow Rose player is Norman James Brown (dob 23 July 1950) and the player you have mentioned I am fairly sure is Norman George Brown (dob 25 October 1957). 

I hope this helps.

Brilliant work, many thanks Blue Dragon!!!  Don't suppose you know what happened to N. G. Brown after he left Meadowbank?  Thanks again, DG

[bluedragon]

1 hour ago, Saints1921 said:

Brilliant work, many thanks Blue Dragon!!!  Don't suppose you know what happened to N. G. Brown after he left Meadowbank?  Thanks again, DG

I am  sorry I do not have much more.

Norman George Brown was born in Falkirk on 25 October 1957. It appears that he may have been on an S Form with Hibernian. He played for Grangemouth International Boys Club. He joined Coventry City in August 1974 it then goes a bit hazy because a Norman Brown of Norwich City was a Scotland Under-18 trialist in 1975/76. Is this the same player? The next I have is that he played one league game for Dundee in the 1978/79 season after playing in Norway. I am afraid I do not have him playing for Meadowbank Thistle or anything after that. 

There were three Norrie Browns playing around the same time but your player is slightly younger than the other two. I believe that the Linlithgow Rose player was a Pumpherston player in 1969/70 before signing for Rose in August 1974. The other one came from Paisley and is older.

I am sorry I cannot help further but I hope others might be able to help.

Edited February 24, 2019 by bluedragon

[Saints1921]

1 hour ago, bluedragon said:

I am  sorry I do not have much more.

Norman George Brown was born in Falkirk on 25 October 1957. It appears that he may have been on an S Form with Hibernian. He played for Grangemouth International Boys Club. He joined Coventry City in August 1974 it then goes a bit hazy because a Norman Brown of Norwich City was a Scotland Under-18 trialist in 1975/76. Is this the same player? The next I have is that he played one league game for Dundee in the 1978/79 season after playing in Norway. I am afraid I do not have him playing for Meadowbank Thistle or anything after that. 

There were three Norrie Browns playing around the same time but your player is slightly younger than the other two. I believe that the Linlithgow Rose player was a Pumpherston player in 1969/70 before signing for Rose in August 1974. The other one came from Paisley and is older.

I am sorry I cannot help further but I hope others might be able to help.

Again - great stuff Blue Dragon - that's very useful.  I had the Norway info but not Coventry, although that could fit!  I'll keep looking but thanks again, DG

[Strathman]

I have a programme Highland League v Scotland Juniors 23rd March 1980 at Boroughbriggs, Elgin.

Does anyone have any details of the match? 

There was a player who went on to play  in a European Cup Final in the Programme line up curiously enough!

[sureitsza]

The match was played on 3 May 1980.

see page 12 for details - https://news.google.com/newspapers?nid=2mus-XyGPC0C&dat=19800503&printsec=frontpage&hl=en

 

[Strathman]

Many Thanks. The new date explains why I could not find details at the library.   

[bluedragon]

18 hours ago, Strathman said:

Many Thanks. The new date explains why I could not find details at the library.   

The original match was postponed due to the weather. Junior Scotland have played six matches against the Highland League but the 1980 match is the only one where we have the full details. Here are the six matches. Can anyone help fill in the gaps?

3 May 1980 at Borough Briggs, Elgin 0:3 lost 

5 April 1981 at Muirton Park, Perth  1:1 drawn (Missing nine players’ names and the Junior goalscorer)

1 May 1982 at Victoria Park, Buckie  0:1 lost (Only the names of the selected squad are known)

24 April 1983 at Westview Park, Kirriemuir 2:1 won (Only the names of the selected squad are known)

4 March 1997 at Allan Park, Aberdeen 1:0 won (Missing nine players’ names)

12 December 1999 at North End Park, Dundee (No details known – was it even played?)

[Eednud]

This might interest some of you. From Blether with Brown. https://www.eveningtelegraph.co.uk/fp/blether-with-brown-dundee-junior-stars-on-their-way-to-play-england/

[bluedragon]

On 05/05/2019 at 01:07, Eednud said:

This might interest some of you. From Blether with Brown. https://www.eveningtelegraph.co.uk/fp/blether-with-brown-dundee-junior-stars-on-their-way-to-play-england/

Thank you for posting the link to the photograph and article. The Dundee duo in the photograph scored both Scotland’s goals in a 2:1 win against England at St Andrews, Birmingham on 8 April 1933. Dicky Boag (Lochee Harp) opened the scoring after 20 minutes and then made the second goal for Jimmy Briggs (Dundee Violet) on 30 minutes. Although England got a goal back 10 minutes later, they could not get past Scottish ‘keeper Archie Gourlay (Dunipace) after that. The Birmingham crowd applauded him off the field at both half and full time for his performance.

[bluedragon]

25 minutes ago, bluedragon said:

Thank you for posting the link to the photograph and article. The Dundee duo in the photograph scored both Scotland’s goals in a 2:1 win against England at St Andrews, Birmingham on 8 April 1933. Dicky Boag (Lochee Harp) opened the scoring after 20 minutes and then made the second goal for Jimmy Briggs (Dundee Violet) on 30 minutes. Although England got a goal back 10 minutes later, they could not get past Scottish ‘keeper Archie Gourlay (Dunipace) after that. The Birmingham crowd applauded him off the field at both half and full time for his performance.

I think I have found the name of the official in the photograph along with the two players. The Dundee Evening Telegraph (6 April 1933) says “They were accompanied by DS Beaton, one of the Forfarshire representatives on the SJFA”.  

[Burnie_man]

A question which is slightly off tangent but still relevant.

Have there been any Scottish Junior Internationalists (or Junior Cup Winners) who have went on to represent non-UK nations at full International level?  I’m thinking, Australia, New Zealand, South Africa, Canada, USA etc  ie through emigration to “The Dominions”.

I know a fair number of Scots have turned out for Australia, and indeed three Scots born players were fielded by New Zealand against Scotland in the 1982 WC.  Also of course, the USA was captained by a Scot when they beat England in the 1950 WC.  Just wondering if any were of “stature” in the Junior game.

[bluedragon]

On 20/05/2019 at 10:15, Burnie_man said:

A question which is slightly off tangent but still relevant.

Have there been any Scottish Junior Internationalists (or Junior Cup Winners) who have went on to represent non-UK nations at full International level?  I’m thinking, Australia, New Zealand, South Africa, Canada, USA etc  ie through emigration to “The Dominions”.

I know a fair number of Scots have turned out for Australia, and indeed three Scots born players were fielded by New Zealand against Scotland in the 1982 WC.  Also of course, the USA was captained by a Scot when they beat England in the 1950 WC.  Just wondering if any were of “stature” in the Junior game.

The only one I have recorded is Archibald “Archie” Blue (Royal Albert) who played for Junior Scotland against Rangers on 16 December 1959. He signed for Heart of Midlothian immediately afterwards and stayed at Tynecastle until 30 April 1961. He was capped 12 times (4 goals) for Australia including twice against Scotland in 1967.

As you say there are probably many more as we did not specifically check that out. If you have some names it will be easy to check.

Bobby McCallum (Lanark United) was capped against England in 1976. His daughter (Collette) was capped 81 times for the Australian women’s team.

[bluedragon]

The late Tommy O’Hara won three Junior international caps in the 1970/71 season while at Kirkintilloch Rob Roy. He also represented the United States of America in a friendly international against Trinidad & Tobago in Port of Spain on 21 March 1982. USA won 2:1.

[Burnie_man]

Thanks for that.  It was one of those questions that popped into my head randomly when reading something on Australian football!  I have a book coming soon, the Encyclopedia of the Socceroos, its basically a biography of every player to represent Australia, will be interesting to see what it turns up.

[Thedoomed123]

Looking forward to seeing this guys 

[bluedragon]

We now have collected information on 433 matches played by Junior Scotland. We have 2,418 players listed. However, we are still missing a forename(s)/first initial(s) for several players who played for one of today’s clubs. It is difficult to find forenames from these times as newspaper reports, line-ups, etc. only included a surname. One of the other problems is that with many line-ups collected from newspapers there is a risk I have a mis-spelling of some surnames. Anyway if anyone can help in any way it would be very much appreciated.

Thank you.

Here is the current list. (I) indicates that the player played in an international match.

Ashfield - Dysart (I) (1901)

Blantyre Victoria - Robertson (I) (1915)

Cambuslang Rangers  - McIntosh (I) (1921)

Cumnock - Cumming (1916); McCracken (1921)

Dalry Thistle - Carroll (1921)

Darvel - Ross (1922); Findlay (I) (1927)

Dundee Violet - Young (1916)

Dunipace Juniors - Mackay (1906); Robertson (1906); Ferguson (1921)

Fauldhouse United - McMeekin (1926)

Glasgow Perthshire - Abrams (1926); Bennie (I) (1927); Keith (I) (1926); Menzies (1926); McKay  (1921)

Hall Russell's - Soutar (1927); Baxter (1941)

Kilbirnie Ladeside - Carroce (1920)

Larkhall Thistle - Paterson (1921)

Maryhill - Johnstone (1921)

Renfrew - Brown (I) (1916 & 1920)

Shettleston - Cassidy (1911); Jamieson (I) (1924); White (1939)

Vale of Clyde - Weeks (1893); Paterson (1939)

Vale of Leven - O'Hare (1920)

Yoker Athletic - Gray (1915); Kennedy (I) (1927)

EDITED on 11 October 2019 to delete three players whose forename/initial have now been found.

Edited October 11, 2019 by bluedragon

[bluedragon]

On 09/10/2019 at 23:50, gogsy said:

I was doing some searching on BNA and saw a reference to a William Keenan on this link, unfortunately not a member of site so couldn't go into further detail maybe gives William Keenan Armadale 1941? West Lothian Courier 8th August

https://www.britishnewspaperarchive.co.uk/search/results/1941-01-01/1941-12-31?basicsearch=keenan &somesearch=keenan&exactsearch=false&retrievecountrycounts=false&newspapertitle=west%2Blothian%2Bcourier&page=0

 

Thanks Gogsy. You have found  one of our missing forenames.  William Brackanridge Keenan played for Clydebank and West Calder United before going to Rochdale for the 1938/39 season.  In that BNA link it shows him as "right back William Keenan (Rochdale)" in the list of Armadale Thistle players for the 1941/42 season. 

We have found another two forenames and so I will edit the previous post to take the three players off the list.

Thank you.

[bluedragon]

Full and amateur Scottish internationalists can find their record in dedicated books but a Junior internationalist cannot – until now!  We have put  the results of our research (to date!) into book format. 

 “Junior Scotland 1889 to 2019: The Matches and Players” by Douglas Gorman and Tom McGouran is available on the Lulu self-publishing website for £9.50 plus £2.99 post & packaging using this link:

http://www.lulu.com/shop/douglas-gorman-and-tom-mcgouran/junior-scotland-1889-to-2019-the-players-and-matches/paperback/product-24374426.html

Note: the website will automatically default to the more expensive delivery option (£12.99)  and if you want it for £2.99 then you need to change it.

The book lists details of 421 international and friendly matches played by Junior Scotland over 130 years. It also includes 11 matches that were postponed or abandoned to complete the listing. The listing of each match also includes, when it could be found, the attendance and gate receipts.

We have been able to identify 2,426 players from those matches and their Junior Scotland record, together with goals scored and if they captained the team, is all included in the individual listing of each player. 

Although the book is principally a listing of players and matches it would not be complete without featuring some reference to the rich history of the Junior game. The book includes two chapters detailing some of the famous players and notable matches included in the listings. It also has three summaries of all the matches played in tabular format and details of the various trophies competed for over the years.

Inevitably some match details have proved elusive. We believe that we have identified all matches described as internationals although we are still searching for the names of scorers of 20 goals.  There will be other friendly matches still to be discovered.  95% of the players involved in the matches listed have been identified and of those all but 106 have a forename or at least a first initial. We are also still searching for the names of the scorers of 57 goals in friendly matches. An appendix lists the missing information and we would be very pleased to hear from anyone who can help us or indeed if anyone has any conflicting information.