Junior Internationals – questions, help, clarification, etc.

[bluedragon]

On 26/01/2018 at 10:06, bluedragon said:

We have now got all except one of the forenames  of the players who played in International matches since the Second World War. The player we are missing is “Turnbull (Sunnybank)” who played two matches in 1981.

“Michael Turnbull (Banks o’ Dee)” was capped the year before (1980) and a few years later (1987 & 1988). Is this the same player?  It certainly looks like it but I cannot as yet prove it. To muddy the waters further a Welsh source lists “Turnbull (Banks o’ Dee)” in the 1981 match against Wales at Prestonfield, Linlithgow on 25 April 1981!

Having recently sorted out Ross and Mark Campbell I cannot discount that there were two Turnbulls playing in Aberdeen at the same time.  Can anyone help please?

Thank you.

Some more information. Michael Turnbull signed for Montrose on 10 March 1981. Montrose played 13 league matches in the 1980/81 season after signing Michael but no games were played after the last Junior International on 2 May. Michael played 3 league matches for the club and so they appear to have been between 11 March and 2 May. Were provisional signings still in operation at that time that would have allowed Michael to sign for Montrose and still play in the two Junior Internationals or are the Turnbulls two different players?

[Jambo'ness]

Dug out the old Rothmans book here and can provide the following:  They have his name as M C Turnbull and his three league games were played on March 24, April 1 & April 8, all midweek fixtures.  The two Saturdays in between, he didn't play, so maybe playing for his Junior team?

[bluedragon]

3 minutes ago, Jambo'ness said:

Dug out the old Rothmans book here and can provide the following:  They have his name as M C Turnbull and his three league games were played on March 24, April 1 & April 8, all midweek fixtures.  The two Saturdays in between, he didn't play, so maybe playing for his Junior team?

Thanks Jambo'ness. That is very helpful and narrows it down. I have Michael Charles  for his forenames.  He could  therefore have played for Junior Scotland on 25 April and 2 May if the terms of his signing with Montrose allowed it.  I have not seen the original source, e,g, newspaper, programme, etc that gives "Sunnybank" as his club it is just in a previous listing.  I am now wondering if somewhere along the line the "bank" from  "Banks 'o Dee" has corrupted into "Sunnybank". I am 99% certain it is one player. 

Thank you.

[holmparkheroes]

100 Years- The Juniors 1886 - 1986 lists junior internationalists by club. Banks'o'Dee have Turnbull listed , Sunnybank do not.

[bluedragon]

7 hours ago, holmparkheroes said:

100 Years- The Juniors 1886 - 1986 lists junior internationalists by club. Banks'o'Dee have Turnbull listed , Sunnybank do not.

Thank you HPH. This together with the information from Jambo’ness confirms to me we only have one Turnbull capped for Junior Scotland. Thanks to you both for taking time to find the information.  It is much appreciated.

The only thing nagging away at the back of mind is how Michael Turnbull signed for Montrose on 10 March 1981 and then played both Senior (24 March, 1 April & 8 April), and Junior football (25 April and 2 May) in the remainder of the season.  I know very little about the signing rules but I know in the past he could have been a provisional signing for Montrose and allowed to remain at his Junior club and play matches for Montrose as an anonymous triallist. Michael is clearly named in the Montrose matches found by Jambo’ness. I may be looking for a problem that doesn’t exist but if anyone can educate me I would appreciate it.

[Jambo'ness]

Going by the records I have, it was common for named players to appear up to three times for a club before signing fully.  So in this instance, he may have signed provisionally because he knew he was going to be playing for Scotland.  That's why he only appeared in midweek games for Montrose, leaving the weekends free for Scotland?

Further confirmation about this player from the Clydesdale Bank S|FL Review 1981/82 - DoB 01/08/59 and signed from Banks o' Dee

[bluedragon]

39 minutes ago, Jambo'ness said:

Going by the records I have, it was common for named players to appear up to three times for a club before signing fully.  So in this instance, he may have signed provisionally because he knew he was going to be playing for Scotland.  That's why he only appeared in midweek games for Montrose, leaving the weekends free for Scotland?

Further confirmation about this player from the Clydesdale Bank S|FL Review 1981/82 - DoB 01/08/59 and signed from Banks o' Dee

Thanks Jambo'ness. That confirms it we have one Turnbull who played at Banks o' Dee.  Michael Charles Turnbull played  six times 1980 v Highland League, & England, 1981 Wales & England, 1987  Republic of Ireland and 1988 Wales. 

[bluedragon]

Of the players we know who have played for the SJFA XI since the Second World War in all types of matches (internationals, benefits, trials, representative) we are only missing the forename of four players. I realise that this question will be another that falls into the  "obscure" bracket  but if anyone can help in any way it would be very much appreciated.

Thank you.

4 February 1963 SJFA Amateur XI v SFA Amateur XI (Annfield, Stirling)

Hastings (Nithsdale Wanderers) – forename or even just an initial required.

Scott (Errol)  - We know Errol had a D and a G Scott on their books that season but which one played and what was their forename?

27 April 1946 Scotland v Ireland (Tynecastle, Edinburgh)

D Mattison (Yoker Athletic) – forename or even an initial required.

9 February 1963 SJFA XI v Glasgow JFA XI (match postponed)

Smith (Troon) - forename or even just an initial required.

[bluedragon]

I need some more help please.

So far we have only identified 12 matches where a SJFA XI has played a match to celebrate an anniversary. We instinctively feel that there must have been more games of this type.  Can anyone add to the list below?

Here are the 12 matches and below some of them are a few questions we are trying to answer. 

22 March 1952 v Banks o' Dee - Golden Jubilee of Banks o' Dee FC

Required: SJFA goalscorers and half-time score.

18 May 1968 v Bo'ness United - Tercentenary of the town of Bo'ness

17 June 1970 v Lanark United - Golden Jubilee of Lanark United FC

Required: Half-time score

1 May 1971 v Secondary Juvenile XI - Golden Jubilee of the Scottish Secondary Juvenile FA

20 October 1974 v Central League XI - Centenary of Vale of Clyde FC

14 March 1982 v SJFA East Region  - Anniversary match

Required: Half-time score. Confirmation of the anniversary. The only possibility I can think of is 60 years since the smaller JFAs operating in the East came under the East of Scotland JFA or am I missing something obvious?

3 August 1985 v East of Scotland Junior Football Association   - Anniversary match

Required: SJFA line-up and goalscorers. Confirmation of the anniversary. Was it the centenary of the first attempt to form an East of Scotland JFA or simply the centenary of Junior football in Edinburgh or something else?

3 June 1989 v Central League Select - Centenary of Ayrshire JFA

4 Jun 1989 v North Ayrshire Select - Centenary of Ayrshire JFA

28 May 1994 v North Wales Coast FA - Centenary of North Wales Coast FA

22 Oct 1995 v Camelon - 75th anniversary of Camelon FC

Required: Final & half-time scores and the SJFA team that took the field (we only have the squad selected) & goalscorers.

6 April 1997 v Irvine Meadow XI - Centenary of Irvine Meadow XI FC

As always any answers, additions, amendments, corrections, etc. will be most gratefully received. .

[bluedragon]

On 28/01/2018 at 12:34, bluedragon said:

Of the players we know who have played for the SJFA XI since the Second World War in all types of matches (internationals, benefits, trials, representative) we are only missing the forename of four players. I realise that this question will be another that falls into the  "obscure" bracket  but if anyone can help in any way it would be very much appreciated.

Thank you.

4 February 1963 SJFA Amateur XI v SFA Amateur XI (Annfield, Stirling)

Hastings (Nithsdale Wanderers) – forename or even just an initial required.

Scott (Errol)  - We know Errol had a D and a G Scott on their books that season but which one played and what was their forename?

27 April 1946 Scotland v Ireland (Tynecastle, Edinburgh)

D Mattison (Yoker Athletic) – forename required.

9 February 1963 SJFA XI v Glasgow JFA XI (match postponed)

Smith (Troon) - forename or even just an initial required.

I have now double-checked the original source and found a spelling error - it should read 

27 April 1946 Scotland v Ireland (Tynecastle, Edinburgh)

D Mathieson (Yoker Athletic) – forename required.

[bluedragon]

We are now following another lead to identify our mystery player from the Scotland v Ireland match at Tynecastle on 27 April 1946. Can anyone help please?

Is our player Dugald Mathieson? He played for three Scottish League clubs but I do not think played any first team League/Cup games.

1950/51 Heart of Midlothian - released on 30 April 1951

1951/52 Inverness Thistle

1952/53 Dunfermline Athletic signed 16 August 1962 released 25 September 1952

1952/53 Stirling Albion signed 27 September 1952 released 21 October 1952

Can anyone connect him to our Junior Internationalists or connect the two right backs from the 1945/46 and 1946/47 seasons?

1945/46 season

The newspapers report “Mathieson (Yoker Athletic)” played at right back in the last Junior International of that season. However, the registration books for that season show “D Mattison” as the only player on Yoker Athletic’s books with a similar looking/sounding name.

1946/47 season

Dugald Mathieson (Fauldhouse Athletic) was a right back who played in three of the four Junior Scotland matches in the season.

A few other points:

1) All three players are right backs.

2) If the Fauldhouse player joined Hearts it seems a long time to wait to be called up?

3) I cannot find a Mathieson at Fauldhouse in reports of their Junior Cup winning season of 1945/46. So the Yoker player may have joined them in 1946/47?

4) Is the Yoker player Mathieson or Mattison?

Thank you.

[Jambo'ness]

48 minutes ago, bluedragon said:

We are now following another lead to identify our mystery player from the Scotland v Ireland match at Tynecastle on 27 April 1946. Can anyone help please?

Is our player Dugald Mathieson? He played for three Scottish League clubs but I do not think played any first team League/Cup games.

1950/51 Heart of Midlothian - released on 30 April 1951

1951/52 Inverness Thistle

1952/53 Dunfermline Athletic signed 16 August 1962 released 25 September 1952

1952/53 Stirling Albion signed 27 September 1952 released 21 October 1952

Can anyone connect him to our Junior Internationalists or connect the two right backs from the 1945/46 and 1946/47 seasons?

1945/46 season

The newspapers report “Mathieson (Yoker Athletic)” played at right back in the last Junior International of that season. However, the registration books for that season show “D Mattison” as the only player on Yoker Athletic’s books with a similar looking/sounding name.

1946/47 season

Dugald Mathieson (Fauldhouse Athletic) was a right back who played in three of the four Junior Scotland matches in the season.

A few other points:

1) All three players are right backs.

2) If the Fauldhouse player joined Hearts it seems a long time to wait to be called up?

3) I cannot find a Mathieson at Fauldhouse in reports of their Junior Cup winning season of 1945/46. So the Yoker player may have joined them in 1946/47?

4) Is the Yoker player Mathieson or Mattison?

Thank you.

http://www.londonhearts.com/scores/players/mathesondougal.html

The link above should tie it all up, with yet another variance in spelling but did play for both Yoker & Fauldhouse.

[bluedragon]

11 minutes ago, Jambo'ness said:

http://www.londonhearts.com/scores/players/mathesondougal.html

The link above should tie it all up, with yet another variance in spelling but did play for both Yoker & Fauldhouse.

Thanks Jambo’ness. Found him! We have one player despite three different spellings of his surname and two of his first name!

Dugald Clark Matheson

Born 22 June 1924 in Glasgow

Played juvenile for Yoker Fernlea and Cunard Thistle before joining Yoker Athletic and getting capped for Junior Scotland.  He moved to Fauldhouse United in April 1947 and was capped again. He was then signed by Heart of Midlothian from Fauldhouse United on 28 June 1947.  He was released by Hearts  on 30 April 1951 and went to Inverness Thistle in September 1951.  He signed for Dunfermline Athletic on 16 August 1952 and was released 25 September 1952. and  soon after signed for Stirling Albion on 27 September 1952 before being released on 21 October 1952.

The only remaining issue is to check when he joined Fauldhouse as I have him as a Fauldhouse player in August 1946. A minor issue.

Thanks again for all your help. 

 

 

[Griffin]

Scotland team who played England 1971 - 72
Lawrie Swan - Newburgh far left standing

[bluedragon]

4 hours ago, Griffin said:

Scotland team who played England 1971 - 72
Lawrie Swan - Newburgh far left standing

A great photograph! Thanks for posting it.

This photograph was taken at Manor Park, Nuneaton on 8 April 1973. The old ground, now long gone, was one of the biggest non-league grounds in England. It is also the first game when a manager was appointed to the team.

The score was:

England 1(1) Scotland 5 (2)

The goalscorers were:

England scorer: Holmes - Scotland scorers: Bell, Pettigrew 2, Steele 2 (1 penalty)

Laurie Swan was originally selected in the starting XI but failed a fitness test immediately before the game and substitute Gibby Kerr took his place leaving just a goalkeeper on the bench. I am not sure if Laurie was fit enough to sit on the bench as a substitute to be used in a real emergency or whether he stripped just for the photograph and then took no further part in proceedings.

Here are the names of the fifteen people in the photograph. Can anyone else add more names to faces?

Starting XI:

John Young (Carluke Rovers)

Jim Scott (Cumbernauld United)

Sandy Calder (Mugiemoss)

John Crooks (Cumnock)

Jackie Mordue (Cambuslang Rangers)

Gibby Kerr (Lanark United)

John Cummings (Cambuslang Rangers)

Brian Bell (Kello Rovers)

Willie Pettigrew (East Kilbride Thistle) – sitting middle of front row with the ball at his feet

Billy Steele (Benburb) – sitting second from the right

Willie McCallum (Cambuslang Rangers)

Substitutes:

Davie Nicholls (Dundee Osborne) – goalkeeper

Laurie Swan (Newburgh) – standing far left

Manager:

Davie McLaggan (Cambuslang Rangers) – standing back row extreme right

Trainer/Physio:

Dunky Black (Irvine Meadow XI) - crouching front row extreme left

Edited February 3, 2018 by bluedragon

[Griffin]

 

Sorry dont know how the previous post got distorted

Better quality upload this time

Lawrie was at our home game yesterday at Newburgh and brought this photo for our clubroom wall

How we could do with a player of his quality now!!

 

 

[naetshirt]

Thank you for Joe McGoldrick. I have now found Gerald "Ged" Reilly was the substitute goalkeeper. That just leaves Brown (Linlithgow Rose) and Sloan (Yoker Athletic) with missing first names. 

Ged Reilly, George (Murph) Malone and myself on coaching staff under Davie Baikie at Tayport mid nineties. He'd an absolute gent.

[naetshirt]

Scotland team who played England 1971 - 72
Lawrie Swan - Newburgh far left standing

Played as a realist for St Andrews Utd v Newburgh as a 16 year old in 1971. Swan kicked me up and down the park[emoji30]

[Zen Archer (Raconteur)]

49 minutes ago, naetshirt said:

Played as a realist for St Andrews Utd v Newburgh as a 16 year old in 1971. Swan kicked me up and down the park

Were the rest of the team in denial?

[bluedragon]

17 hours ago, Griffin said:

 

Sorry dont know how the previous post got distorted

Better quality upload this time

Lawrie was at our home game yesterday at Newburgh and brought this photo for our clubroom wall

How we could do with a player of his quality now!!

 

 

Laurie Swan sustained a knee injury playing for Newburgh against Cambuslang Rangers in the 0:4 defeat at Brockville in the Junior Cup semi-final on the Monday before this match. However, he still travelled to Birmingham with the Junior Scotland squad in the hope that he would recover. The team travelled to Birmingham on the Friday, trained on the Saturday and played the match at 11:00 am on the Sunday!  The Birmingham FA ("England") team contained five players from Alvechurch FC. This was a very strong amateur team at the time and have a place in the record books as they played Oxford City six times in 17 days in the longest-ever FA Cup tie in 1971.