Teachers of P&B

[DrewDon]

I'm not sure about the 'Higher Maths pass' requirement for primary school teachers - that seems a little arbitrary to me. Squeezing a 'C' grade in Higher Maths when you're 16 or 17-ish would not necessarily make you any better at communicating the requisite information to pupils when you eventually qualify as a primary teacher.

Perhaps a higher bar should be set regarding primary teachers' maths abilities, but I'm not convinced that is the best solution. I don't know what is, mind. 

[David W]

I really enjoy it; every day is different and there's always something new happening. I teach in one of the top schools in Scotland so don't really have to worry so much about behaviour issues etc but the challenge then is to get good results. I can't say the planning/marking takes a ridiculous amount of time as our resources and forward planning from previous years are easily transferable. I'm not going to spend a single day during my holiday doing work (I got everything done pre-summer) and I've not spent a single minute working on a Saturday/Sunday since my student year, although I appreciate many others do. Too many people waste time on pointless tasks; the industry is absolutely riddled with wasted hours.

All the stuff with the kids is great, in class and extra-curricular. It's a good laugh taking a school team, I do a trip abroad for S2 every year as well (Real Madrid with 49 kids last year, Porto next year, several others previously) which is always a highlight of my year personally. If you're prepared and take an interest in them you'll get the benefit in class.

The pay is rubbish really in comparison with other countries. Needs sorted out asap or a strike will be coming. The SNP are completely ignorant in relation to education.

Best advice is to ignore acronyms and work out quickly which senior staff to ignore, and which to get on the right side of. 

[mike rankine]

Standard Grade (or Nat 5) should be sufficient to teach the difficulty of (even P7) primary maths. My maths lecturer at Uni said those who had struggled with Maths as pupils themselves were almost always the better teacher of Maths (because they understood exactly why some pupils found maths concepts difficult).

[Gaz]

12 minutes ago, DrewDon said:

I'm not sure about the 'Higher Maths pass' requirement for primary school teachers - that seems a little arbitrary to me. Squeezing a 'C' grade in Higher Maths when you're 16 or 17-ish would not necessarily make you any better at communicating the requisite information to pupils when you eventually qualify as a primary teacher.

Perhaps a higher bar should be set regarding primary teachers' maths abilities, but I'm not convinced that is the best solution. I don't know what is, mind. 

My argument is that having a pass at Higher means you must have a degree of competence and, more importantly, confidence in the subject that you don't necessarily need to scrape through N5.

[Gaz]

6 minutes ago, mike rankine said:

Standard Grade (or Nat 5) should be sufficient to teach the difficulty of (even P7) primary maths. My maths lecturer at Uni said those who had struggled with Maths as pupils themselves were almost always the better teacher of Maths (because they understood exactly why some pupils found maths concepts difficult).

As I've said above, it's not about the difficulty. It's about having the confidence to teach and communicate it.

Besides which, if you go down the 'difficulty' route, why should they need a Higher in English? Why should a primary teacher need any formal qualifications at all to teach the difficulty of P7 level work?

Edited July 19, 2017 by Gaz

[DrewDon]

5 minutes ago, Gaz said:

My argument is that having a pass at Higher means you must have a degree of competence and, more importantly, confidence in the subject that you don't necessarily need to scrape through N5.

Maths was never my strongest subject at school, so I primarily sought just to remember enough information and methods without ever gaining a particularly deep understanding of what I was being taught. If you asked me some of the things I was required to learn in Higher Maths now, I would be lost. I don't think my experiences then would make me a particularly more competent and confident teacher or communicator of maths if I were a primary school teacher now, compared to if I had decided to drop the subject after Standard Grade. 

As a teacher, you will be in a better position than me to know if something should be done, but I'm not convinced, all things considered, that a 'Higher Maths pass' requirement is the best answer. What is, though, as I said previously, I'm not quite sure. 

[NotThePars]

One thing I noticed from my PGDE was the tension between primary and secondary teachers. Our tutors were insistent that the primary students had the tougher job but I don't know if that was just a morale boosting attempt or a genuine belief. I think the greatest problem is that there isn't any wholehearted attempts at creating greater links between the primary and secondary levels. The piss poor implementation of CfE wouldn't give me any hope that there could be any attempts at building worthwhile links either.

[mike rankine]

The secret bullet, of course, is pedagogy. The ability to teach and understand the different learning approaches necessary to impart knowledge and skills.

I found Maths really easy as a student. Managed an 'A' grade at higher Maths and subsequently studied Maths at 1st year University. The fact I love maths and I am confident and enthusiastic about teaching it doesn't necessarily make me a particularly strong maths teacher. I struggle at times to understand why pupils cannot grasp the most simplest of concepts, e.g. number bonds to 10, times tables etc.

[parsforlife]

I really don't understand why your ability to ramble 1000 words together enough to satisfy arbitrary rules is more important than being able to apply logic in order to solve problems.

Make a small mistake with your language, somebody may ask you a question to clarify. Make a mistake with your mathematics, people die.

[mizfit]

I hated maths at school, then again I had a teacher with no interest in teaching until 4th year and by then the damage was done.

[AyrshireTon]

3 minutes ago, mizfit said:

I hated maths at school, then again I had a teacher with no interest in teaching until 4th year and by then the damage was done.

The same teacher for 4 years? Did they not even swap classes about or was it a one person department?

[mizfit]

The same teacher for 4 years? Did they not even swap classes about or was it a one person department?

It was just chance, she took over halfway through 1st year and I had her until the end of second year, after that when we were moved around again for 3rd & 4th I just happened to get her again as a teacher.

Got an A at Int 1. Level and scraped a D at Int 2, always said I was going to improve on that but never got around to it.

[Cerberus]

32 minutes ago, parsforlife said:

I really don't understand why your ability to ramble 1000 words together enough to satisfy arbitrary rules is more important than being able to apply logic in order to solve problems.

Make a small mistake with your language, somebody may ask you a question to clarify. Make a mistake with your mathematics, people die.

1+1=3

Yeah I went there.

[pandarilla]

The secret bullet, of course, is pedagogy. The ability to teach and understand the different learning approaches necessary to impart knowledge and skills.

I found Maths really easy as a student. Managed an 'A' grade at higher Maths and subsequently studied Maths at 1st year University. The fact I love maths and I am confident and enthusiastic about teaching it doesn't necessarily make me a particularly strong maths teacher. I struggle at times to understand why pupils cannot grasp the most simplest of concepts, e.g. number bonds to 10, times tables etc.

Pedagogy is important - but if you're looking for a magic bullet in teaching I'd say it's relationships.

If you have the social skills to connect with young people and earn their trust and respect then the job's a bogey. Everything else is quite easy to get right, with a little bit of effort.

You can have the best teaching ideas in the world and it won't mean a thing if the class don't like you. Same applies to ability/qualification in a subject, or use of technology or anything like that.

[mike rankine]

100% agree, Pandarilla. Relationships and mutual respect are key.

[SilverWolfe]

You probably got unlucky                   

Wanted to quote you both but had to delete the actual quotes due to length.

I do believe I got a bit unlucky with my placements. My first placement was St Andrews in Carntyne where the head teacher was some Dale Winton perma tan knobhead who seemed to want to discipline his staff like they were his pupils. I then got pulled up for speaking to a friend who was a Physics teacher during our lunch hour because the Maths Department apparently didn't talk to the Physics Department. There were also a couple of teachers who were grassing on other teachers for petty things. To me it was very petty and too many people on power trips who seemed to think being a teacher made you the top members of society.

Second and third placements were at a school in Clydebank where my head of maths was a complete witch of a woman. I wonder if this is the same one mentioned in one of your posts? Just daft things like one day i was preparing lesson plans in the Maths staff room during lunch time and had put my earphones in to zone out and concentrate. Next thing I'm dragged off into her classroom and told in no uncertain terms that listening to music in the staff room was unprofessional. Other things like being told to have my top button of my shirt done at all times while on the premises of the school and really daft petty things.

By the time I quit my entire impression from those 2 schools was that teachers were the biggest c***s that ever lived and still haven't got rid of that opinion.

I have in fairness met a few good c***s that are teachers but I still find the majority to be stuck up their own arses and think they are some super heroes of society. No offense intended to any of you teachers on here of course [emoji14]

[Andershen]

2 of my friends have just finished their probation years. They both ticked the 'anywhere box' and one got Dumfries and the other Orkney! 

They both have said getting a job anywhere near the central belt is impossible. One has been offered a permanent job in Dingwall and the other Methil!

Make of that what you will. 

[Hedgecutter]

On the Maths for teachers thing, I have an A in Higher maths and used the Windows calculator earlier today to work out 47 + 54. Was an important moment in my work and I didn't trust myself to get it right. I also cannot divide anything, or subtract. A P2 would probably outshine me at arithmetic, something I've always struggled with tbh. I must have got 100% in the non-calculator exam as there is no other way I could have got an A. That or bribing underpaid workers is the true key to success.

[AyrshireTon]

12 minutes ago, Hedgecutter said:

On the Maths for teachers thing, I have an A in Higher maths and used the Windows calculator earlier today to work out 47 + 54. Was an important moment in my work and I didn't trust myself to get it right. I also cannot divide anything, or subtract. A P2 would probably outshine me at arithmetic, something I've always struggled with tbh. I must have got 100% in the non-calculator exam as there is no other way I could have got an A. That or bribing underpaid workers is the true key to success.

There are pupils these days who are allowed a calculator in the non-calculator paper on the grounds that they are either dyscalculic or just not very good at times tables.

My views on this are pretty strong.

Even that pales compared to the role of a "prompter" - where you tap the desk of the candidate to remind them that they need to answer the questions in their exam.

[ayrmad]

2 hours ago, AyrshireTon said:

There are pupils these days who are allowed a calculator in the non-calculator paper on the grounds that they are either dyscalculic or just not very good at times tables.

My views on this are pretty strong.

Even that pales compared to the role of a "prompter" - where you tap the desk of the candidate to remind them that they need to answer the questions in their exam.

At least they're recognising it exists instead of treating them all like dafties.