My daft laddie Junior football questions

[Dipple burn]

Back to the subject of ash parks. Beechwood Park the home of Talbot spent a season as an ash park just after WW2 but it turned out to be a disaster due to drainage and they were forced into playing at Cumnock until the playing surface was rectified. When I was researching my booklet on Juvenile football in Auchinleck I came across a story where teams were complaining about the juvenile side who shared Beechwood with the Talbot. Seemingly there were telephone or electric cables that were strung above the goals at the Coal Road End and the Auchinleck lads had a habit of hammering the ball off the cables and dropping the ball on top of the visiting keeper. Whether it was true is unclear as the article was penned by the Cumnock Chronicle reporter of that time "The Glaisnock Lad" who liked to add a bit of mirth to his reports.

[Ian38018]

5 minutes ago, Dipple burn said:

Back to the subject of ash parks. Beechwood Park the home of Talbot spent a season as an ash park just after WW2 but it turned out to be a disaster due to drainage and they were forced into playing at Cumnock until the playing surface was rectified. When I was researching my booklet on Juvenile football in Auchinleck I came across a story where teams were complaining about the juvenile side who shared Beechwood with the Talbot. Seemingly there were telephone or electric cables that were strung above the goals at the Coal Road End and the Auchinleck lads had a habit of hammering the ball off the cables and dropping the ball on top of the visiting keeper. Whether it was true is unclear as the article was penned by the Cumnock Chronicle reporter of that time "The Glaisnock Lad" who liked to add a bit of mirth to his reports.

I can recall going to see Vale of Clyde playing Kilsyth as (ahem) recently as 1984 or so, and being taken aback by the fact the playing surface looked around 80% black ash, with just a few islands of muddy green.  Mind you - it was, i recall, pretty much the only match that day to have survived the previous few days' downpour.  

[Dipple burn]

Hopefully there should be a link to some footage of Beechwood Park in 1939. Press the blue button entitled watch on vimeo.

 

[Ian38018]

Fascinating footage of Beechwood.

I am sure thats that Stevie Mallon scoring one of the goals!

 

[Dipple burn]

29 minutes ago, Ian38018 said:

Fascinating footage of Beechwood.

I am sure thats that Stevie Mallon scoring one of the goals!

 

Use the chevron on the right when the Beechwood video is playing and you can click through to the Bute Charity match played at Townhead Park. I can remember that wooden clubhouse.

 

[Wile E Coyote]

Expected that footage to be a joke of some sort but its real. Is that the current site of the park, the railway line looks much closer than it should be

[tommyboy]

34 minutes ago, Dipple burn said:

Use the chevron on the right when the Beechwood video is playing and you can click through to the Bute Charity match played at Townhead Park. I can remember that wooden clubhouse.

 

Interesting stuff Dimps,and good to learn that the Scotsport cameraman served his apprenticeship in Ayrshire.

Anyhoo,since there have been a couple of mentions of Juvenile fitba it's possibly worth pointing out that after Burnbank Athletic assumed the Swifts' mantle in 1900,that club returned some time later as a pretty successful*Juvenile outfit ( they won the Scottish on four occasions) and indeed from the mid-fifties until Athletic folded in 1962,both clubs were active in their respective Junior/Juvenile leagues.

*This article tells us just how successful they were in the 69/70 season....

http://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/news/local-news/burnbank-swifts-mark-45-years-6031608

[th1stleandr0se]

On the topic of goalscoring, in the 1963-4 season Linlithgow Rose had a centre-forward called Davie Marshall who went to Airdieonians before the end of the season but not before scoring barrowloads of goals.  I checked up the archives of the local papers to confirm something I remembered from when I was a lad.  Davie scored 6,3,3 and 6 in consecutive games, six hat-tricks in 4 games.  Of course, there weren't Superleagues in those days or any pyramid structure at all so it was easier to score and therefore we can't really compare across the ages.  Still impressive though.

[th1stleandr0se]

When you look back the records there seems to have been quite a number of Celtics, Hibs and Harps around.  I assume this was for the Irish immigrant community.  However, I see fewer of them around these days.  I also assume that, say, a Blantyre Victoria v Blantyre Celtic match would be a wee Old Firm match?  I'm guessing Vics would have played in blue and Celtic in green?  Anyone old enough to have been at one of those?

[Hillonearth]

1 hour ago, th1stleandr0se said:

When you look back the records there seems to have been quite a number of Celtics, Hibs and Harps around.  I assume this was for the Irish immigrant community.  However, I see fewer of them around these days.  I also assume that, say, a Blantyre Victoria v Blantyre Celtic match would be a wee Old Firm match?  I'm guessing Vics would have played in blue and Celtic in green?  Anyone old enough to have been at one of those?

I was at one just a few years ago! Blantyre Celtic have reformed at amateur level and the two sides played a pre-season friendly at Castle Park - finished 5-1 or 5-2 to Vics.

As you suspect, Vics play in all blue and Celtic in green and white hoops

[bluedragon]

8 hours ago, th1stleandr0se said:

On the topic of goalscoring, in the 1963-4 season Linlithgow Rose had a centre-forward called Davie Marshall who went to Airdieonians before the end of the season but not before scoring barrowloads of goals.  I checked up the archives of the local papers to confirm something I remembered from when I was a lad.  Davie scored 6,3,3 and 6 in consecutive games, six hat-tricks in 4 games.  Of course, there weren't Superleagues in those days or any pyramid structure at all so it was easier to score and therefore we can't really compare across the ages.  Still impressive though.

Thanks for the post about Dave Marshall. That was a remarkable achievement in any era. I have a note that he joined Airdrieonians from Linlithgow Rose on 29 August 1963 and had 6½ seasons, scoring 51 league goals, at Broomfield. I also have a note, but cannot verify it, that he scored 24 goals in 27 appearances in the 1965/66 season when Airdrie won promotion from the old Second Division. Although they were second they scored 107 goals, 29 more than champions Ayr United. He had shorter spells at Cowdenbeath and Forfar before returning to Rose in June 1972.

[bluedragon]

8 hours ago, th1stleandr0se said:

When you look back the records there seems to have been quite a number of Celtics, Hibs and Harps around.  I assume this was for the Irish immigrant community.  However, I see fewer of them around these days.  I also assume that, say, a Blantyre Victoria v Blantyre Celtic match would be a wee Old Firm match?  I'm guessing Vics would have played in blue and Celtic in green?  Anyone old enough to have been at one of those?

The eight most popular club names with Irish derivations are (in alphabetical order):

Benburb, Celtic, Emerald, Emmet, Erin, Harp,Hibernian and Shamrock. Of those only Benburb, Harp and Hibernian are in use today in Junior football. Leaving aside today’s Benburb, Thornton Hibernian and Lochee Harp here are what I think are the last clubs to bear each of those names and when they ceased to exist.

Leith Benburb (1921) - Blantyre Celtic (1992) - Whifflet Emerald (1933), Kilsyth Emmet (1940), Erin Rangers (Blantyre), Erin Rovers (Coatbridge), Erin Rovers (Falkirk) & Erin Rovers Juniors (Perth) (all 1888) - Maryhill Harp (1967) - Duntocher Hibernian (1980) - Dundee Shamrock (1951).

[Ian38018]

2 minutes ago, bluedragon said:

The eight most popular club names with Irish derivations are (in alphabetical order) are:

Benburb, Celtic, Emerald, Emmet, Erin, Harp,Hibernian and Shamrock. Of those only Benburb, Harp and Hibernian are in use today in Junior football. Leaving aside today’s Benburb, Thornton Hibernian and Lochee Harp here are what I think are the last clubs to bear each of those names and when they ceased to exist.

Leith Benburb (1921) - Blantyre Celtic (1992) - Whifflet Emerald (1933), Kilsyth Emmet (1940), Erin Rangers (Blantyre), Erin Rovers (Coatbridge), Erin Rovers (Falkirk) & Erin Rovers Juniors (Perth) (all 1888) - Maryhill Harp (1967) - Duntocher Hibernian (1980) - Dundee Shamrock (1951).

Pedantic on my part here, I know - but I once had it pointedly impressed upon me by a committee member that the club is Thornton HIBS, not Hibernian.

The Benburb business has always puzzled me, for the community by that name in Northern Ireland is such a modestly-sized place, I cannot imagine it gave rise to two junior clubs.  I know there was a Battle of Benburb, which was won by the Republican (i.e Catholic) side.  So perhaps the clubs were named in recognition of this victory?  All very puzzling.   

[bluedragon]

58 minutes ago, Ian38018 said:

Pedantic on my part here, I know - but I once had it pointedly impressed upon me by a committee member that the club is Thornton HIBS, not Hibernian.

The Benburb business has always puzzled me, for the community by that name in Northern Ireland is such a modestly-sized place, I cannot imagine it gave rise to two junior clubs.  I know there was a Battle of Benburb, which was won by the Republican (i.e Catholic) side.  So perhaps the clubs were named in recognition of this victory?  All very puzzling.   

Not pedantic at all! Thanks for correcting me.

In the East of Scotland there were two clubs with the name Leith Benburb – 1893-94 and 1916-21.  There was a Benburb in Edinburgh (1916-19) that started as Senior but their last season was as Juniors. Loanhead had a short-lived Senior team - Loanhead Benburb (1896-98)

In the West there were three Glasgow Benburbs based in Govanhill (1886-95), Oatlands (1895-98) and today’s club in Govan formed in 1898. They seem to follow in date sequence and although separate clubs there may be a connection. There were two others - Anderston Benburb (1922-23) and Barrhead Benburb (1891-92)

 

[Ian38018]

6 minutes ago, bluedragon said:

Not pedantic at all! Thanks for correcting me.

In the East of Scotland there were two clubs with the name Leith Benburb – 1893-94 and 1916-21.  There was a Benburb in Edinburgh (1916-19) that started as Senior but their last season was as Juniors. Loanhead had a short-lived Senior team - Loanhead Benburb (1896-98)

In the West there were three Glasgow Benburbs based in Govanhill (1886-95), Oatlands (1895-98) and today’s club in Govan formed in 1898. They seem to follow in date sequence and although separate clubs there may be a connection. There were two others - Anderston Benburb (1922-23) and Barrhead Benburb (1891-92)

 

Loads of Benburbs then - so either that wee village was extremely prolific at exporting football club founders to Scotland, or there is (or was) something more significant going on once.  The business is further muddied by the fact I understood the Govan-based Benburb had no links with the catholic population.  Indeed (and I hope I am not stirring the old pot here) the club's supporters' leanings were perhaps in the opposite direction.

[bluedragon]

1 hour ago, Ian38018 said:

Loads of Benburbs then - so either that wee village was extremely prolific at exporting football club founders to Scotland, or there is (or was) something more significant going on once.  The business is further muddied by the fact I understood the Govan-based Benburb had no links with the catholic population.  Indeed (and I hope I am not stirring the old pot here) the club's supporters' leanings were perhaps in the opposite direction.

I had a quick look at this great blog that gives a great summary of the origins of today’s club.

http://benburbfc.blogspot.co.uk/2009/08/benburb-final-chapter-and-new-beginning.html

Here is a short extract:

"So the Benburb of today appear to be a new club that started playing their first match on 15 October 1898 with the committee having no connection with the previous Benburb club……. We can only speculate again as to the use of the Benburb name by the new committee. Was it a bid to honour and recapture the spirit of the previous Benburb club- 'the most successful Junior team in Glasgow'?

Or was it a play to the mood of the time? The Glasgow Junior League was conscious of the clubs that could lure good crowds and there were moves afoot to jettison the least supported clubs. Did the new club hope to give itself a head start by adopting the name of a previously popular club in Junior circles?"

This idea of giving a perception of a link between the old and the new clubs is supported by an advertisement in The Derry Journal of 30 December 1898 for a match at Celtic Park on 31 December 1898 under the banner “First visit to Derry of the Great Benburb (Glasgow)”. The “Great” prefix was earned by the old club but used to attract spectators.

Earlier in the link it mentions that the new club bought the kit from the old club. The old club played in green and white. The new club later changed to Royal blue.

This suggests that today’s Benburb adopted its name for practical and economic reasons.

The first Benburb was formed in Govanhill in 1886 and played until 1895. This team merged with Crown Athletic in 1895 to form Oatlands that almost immediately collapsed. The second Benburb were formed straight away and played in Oatlands and survived until  July 1898 when the Council took over their ground to create Richmond Park. So it looks as if the Irish derivation is from the club formed in 1886.

[Ian38018]

28 minutes ago, bluedragon said:

I had a quick look at this great blog that gives a great summary of the origins of today’s club.

http://benburbfc.blogspot.co.uk/2009/08/benburb-final-chapter-and-new-beginning.html

Here is a short extract:

"So the Benburb of today appear to be a new club that started playing their first match on 15 October 1898 with the committee having no connection with the previous Benburb club……. We can only speculate again as to the use of the Benburb name by the new committee. Was it a bid to honour and recapture the spirit of the previous Benburb club- 'the most successful Junior team in Glasgow'?

Or was it a play to the mood of the time? The Glasgow Junior League was conscious of the clubs that could lure good crowds and there were moves afoot to jettison the least supported clubs. Did the new club hope to give itself a head start by adopting the name of a previously popular club in Junior circles?"

This idea of giving a perception of a link between the old and the new clubs is supported by an advertisement in The Derry Journal of 30 December 1898 for a match at Celtic Park on 31 December 1898 under the banner “First visit to Derry of the Great Benburb (Glasgow)”. The “Great” prefix was earned by the old club but used to attract spectators.

Earlier in the link it mentions that the new club bought the kit from the old club. The old club played in green and white. The new club later changed to Royal blue.

This suggests that today’s Benburb adopted its name for practical and economic reasons.

The first Benburb was formed in Govanhill in 1886 and played until 1895. This team merged with Crown Athletic in 1895 to form Oatlands that almost immediately collapsed. The second Benburb were formed straight away and played in Oatlands and survived until  July 1898 when the Council took over their ground to create Richmond Park. So it looks as if the Irish derivation is from the club formed in 1886.

This is Great.  I love all this sort of stuff.  Now, if someone can up with the link between Kirkintilloch and Rob Roy MacGregor...............

[santheman]

It might also surprise a few people that when Larkhall Thistle were formed from 3 pit teams in 1878 one of the names considered was Larkhall Celtic (although pronounced Keltic in those days).

From the Committee minutes it seems it was an attempt to try and tap into the Irish immigrant population who had come to work in the coal industry.

[Glenconner]

According to the history of St Anthony's both the Ants and the (Govan) Benburb seem to have been started by the same people and by the looks of it by the same family . Both clubs seem to have a connection to the League of the Cross, a catholic temperance group.

[Glenconner]

1 hour ago, santheman said:

It might also surprise a few people that when Larkhall Thistle were formed from 3 pit teams in 1878 one of the names considered was Larkhall Celtic (although pronounced Keltic in those days).

From the Committee minutes it seems it was an attempt to try and tap into the Irish immigrant population who had come to work in the coal industry.

The term "the Celts" had also popped up earlier in relation to Queens Park. Doubt the name Celtic or Keltic has any particular relationship to one community or another until it's used by Brother Walfrid in starting the East End version. He'd already used the monicker "Columba" for a previous team he'd started. There's nothing in both names that is exclusively Irish Catholic compared to naming a club after the Battle of Benburb.