My daft laddie Junior football questions

[bluedragon]

17 minutes ago, garrellburn said:

Denis was a very good footballer who got his Scottish cup medal and Junior caps when still only 19 years old. He played for Raith Rovers before moving on to Nottingham Forrest, and then Colchester where he had a spell as a coach before moving back to Scotland. He had another brother, John, who also played for us around 1957/8. A decent player but never played senior as far as I know. Denis is still a regular visitor to Duncansfield and a nicer man you will never meet.

Thank you that is good to know that he still attends Duncansfield. I think he also had a short time as caretaker manager of Colchester United. John Mochan was on the books of St Johnstone and Alloa for a short time but I do not think he played any first team games. I think there was another brother, Willie, who played a few games for Falkirk and Stenhousemuir.

[Dreghorn]

I remember visiting St Roch's in the early 1960s for a Scottish Cup tie when they played and beat the Meadow 2-0.  Their pitch was mainly ash with various grass patches scattered about.  Almost impossible for the visitors to play on.  Otherwise the ground was very much as it is today.

[Glenconner]

3 hours ago, Dreghorn said:

I remember visiting St Roch's in the early 1960s for a Scottish Cup tie when they played and beat the Meadow 2-0.  Their pitch was mainly ash with various grass patches scattered about.  Almost impossible for the visitors to play on.  Otherwise the ground was very much as it is today.

Grass park and terracing replaced the ash park and railway sleepers after the social club opened in the early 1970s.

[Viewparker]

9 hours ago, Glenconner said:

Grass park and terracing replaced the ash park and railway sleepers after the social club opened in the early 1970s.

The Roch social club allowed me the opportunity to purchase my first pint at age 15. Think it burned down not long after that. If it had only happened a couple of months earlier my liver might not be in the state it is now. 

[bluedragon]

Here is some more information on where Junior Cup Finalists hailed from and the number that are now defunct. I think my geography will stand up to scrutiny! 

The first table shows the location and current playing status of the 260 finalists who have contested 130 finals but excluding the 1917/18 competition when no final was played but Petershill were awarded the Cup.

The second table shows the location and current playing status of the 97 clubs who have played in those 130 finals. The number of clubs is down by one from the number previously quoted in the earlier post as Burnbank Athletic and Burnbank Swifts seem for our purposes to have been the same club.

	No. of finalists	Current status
Location		Defunct	Playing
Glasgow	65	12	53
Lanarkshire	47	18	29
Ayrshire	45	1	44
West Lothian	22	1	21
Renfrewshire	17	5	12
Dunbartonshire	15	2	13
Fife	14	2	12
Stirlingshire	11	3	8
Midlothian	8		8
East Lothian	7	2	5
Angus	5		5
Aberdeenshire	3		3
Edinburgh	1	1
	260	47	213

 

	No. of clubs	Current status
Location		Defunct	Playing
Glasgow	18	7	11
Lanarkshire	15	7	8
Ayrshire	14	1	13
Renfrewshire	9	4	5
West Lothian	8	1	7
Fife	7	2	5
Dunbartonshire	6	2	4
East Lothian	5	2	3
Midlothian	4		4
Stirlingshire	4	1	3
Aberdeenshire	3		3
Angus	3		3
Edinburgh	1	1
	97	28	69

[bluedragon]

 

Here is the list of those defunct clubs. If anyone spots any howlers or can add anything I would be very interested to hear.

No of Finals

Club

Location

Notes

7

Burnbank Athletic

Lanarkshire

This combines Athletic (5) and Swifts (2) as same club

5

Baillieston

Lanarkshire

4

Strathclyde

Glasgow

3

Denny Hibs

Stirlingshire

2

Bridgeton Waverley

Glasgow

2

Shawfield

Glasgow

2

West Benhar Violet

Lanarkshire

2

Renfrew Victoria

Renfrewshire

1

Rugby XI

Ayrshire

Connected to Kilmarnock FC also known at other times as Kilmarnock Juniors & Rugby Park XI

1

Dumbarton Fern

Dunbartonshire

1

Duntochter Hibs

Dunbartonshire

1

Musselburgh Bruntonians

East Lothian

1

Ormiston Primrose

East Lothian

The current Ormiston FC (East of Scotland League) has a direct link back to Ormiston Primrose but treated as "defunct" for Junior purposes

1

Edinburgh Woodburn

Edinburgh

1

Dunfermline Juniors

Fife

1

Inverkeithing United

Fife

1

Fairfield

Glasgow

1

Maryhill Hibernians

Glasgow

1

Minerva

Glasgow

1

Queen's Park Hampden XI

Glasgow

The team moved into the Scottish Amateur League in 1909 but treated as "defunct" for Junior purposes

1

Cambuslang Hibs

Lanarkshire

1

Chryston Athletic

Lanarkshire

1

Dalziel Rovers

Lanarkshire

1

Stonehouse Violet

Lanarkshire

1

Morton Juniors

Renfrewshire

1

St. Mirren Juniors

Renfrewshire

1

Westmarch XI

Renfrewshire

1

West Calder Wanderers

West Lothian

[Shanner]

Can anyone shed some light on Yoker's nickname the Whe Ho?

[LuckyMascot1993]

Talking of club songs in juniors, the Glens have a cracking club song which unfortunately is now very under used & very rarely sung / sung correctly!! We could very much be doing with it being re recorded & released ..... potential to raise some good funds for the club also!!!

[bluedragon]

16 hours ago, Shanner said:

Can anyone shed some light on Yoker's nickname the Whe Ho?

I had a quick look and the best I can find is a reference in Donald McDonald’s novel Antichaos (2007) where he attributes it to a Baldy McGarrity, a Yoker supporter in 1919, who would sing:

“Whe-ho the Yoker, whe-ho the Yoker, whe-ho the Yo-ookeee-eeer!”

However, as I say it is a novel.

[Shanner]

21 minutes ago, bluedragon said:

I had a quick look and the best I can find is a reference in Donald McDonald’s novel Antichaos (2007) where he attributes it to a Baldy McGarrity, a Yoker supporter in 1919, who would sing:

“Whe-ho the Yoker, whe-ho the Yoker, whe-ho the Yo-ookeee-eeer!”

However, as I say it is a novel.

Whether that's the actual origin or not it's really interesting to see posts like this. 

[bluedragon]

On 2017-6-19 at 17:52, Franky Frankopolous said:

Did Loanhead Mayflower have anything to do with the pub of the same name or vice versa?

The excellent book “Fitba’ in Loanhead” by David Adams says that Loanhead Mayflower was first recorded as playing in February 1884 initially as a Juvenile team before moving up to the Juniors. However, there is no mention of the origins of the name. They reached the 6^th Round of the Junior Cup in 1914/15 going out to Petershill. The club stopped playing in January 1928 due to financial difficulties. In September 1946 the local colliery manager convened a meeting to re-start a football club. It was decided to form a Junior club to play in the Edinburgh and District League  and that it would  not be restricted to miners but they would compete on the open market for players. There was a vote on the name for the new club the choice was Juniors, United or Mayflower. Mayflower was a comfortable winner. The mid to late 1950’s saw the club enjoy success and reaching the semi-final of the Junior Cup in 1956/57 when they went out 0:3  to Kilsyth Rangers at Celtic Park. However, the early 1960’s saw the club’s fortunes dip and they closed down in 1965.

In the 1956/57 Junior Cup run a 32-strong Mayflower party flew in a charter ‘plane from Renfrew to Machrihanish to play Campbeltown United. Their travel arrangements made them the first Junior club to fly to a match. Unless anyone knows better?

The first flight associated with Junior football might have been made by Renfrew supporters to see their team play Banks o’ Dee on 15 February 1947. In an attempt to beat the atrocious weather and road and rail conditions of the 1947 winter they chartered a ‘plane to take them from Renfrew to Aberdeen to see their team win 1:0 in front of a record crowd 10,236 at Linksfield Stadium.

The earliest flight I can find for any Junior team is when the Western League team flew to Belfast to play the Irish Intermediate League in Belfast on 5 April 1952.

Irvine Meadow XI flew to a friendly against Birmingham on 16 March 1959.

If anyone knows of any other Junior flyers from around this time or even earlier I would be very interested to hear.

[tombo]

On 23/06/2017 at 14:29, Jason King said:

My dear old thing, Kirkintilloch is not Glasgow.

I did know that,old chap,but in the interests of this really good thread I didn't want to make an issue of it. 

[garrellburn]

Bluedragon

If anyone knows of any other Junior flyers from around this time or even earlier I would be very interested to hear.

Not quite the same thing but our centre half, Bobby Holmes, was a National serviceman in the RAF at Kinloss. He somehow managed to wangle flights almost every week, probably to RNAS Abbotsinch, now Glasgow Airport, so that he could play for Kilsyth. That team of 1953-54 was our most successfull ever, probably even better than the team that won the Junior cup in the following season, !954-55 although of course it did have many of the same players.

He went to St Mirren at the end of that season and went straight into the first team and captained the Scotland U-23 side that year which beat an England team with many players who went on to become full internationalist.Just before the start of the following season he had his leg broken in a training match by his own team mate, Willie Telfer, who later pl;ayed for Glasgow Rangers. He never made a real recovery from the injury but made a career as a physio and was with Mothrwell in that capacity for some years

[bluedragon]

2 hours ago, garrellburn said:

Bluedragon

If anyone knows of any other Junior flyers from around this time or even earlier I would be very interested to hear.

Not quite the same thing but our centre half, Bobby Holmes, was a National serviceman in the RAF at Kinloss. He somehow managed to wangle flights almost every week, probably to RNAS Abbotsinch, now Glasgow Airport, so that he could play for Kilsyth. That team of 1953-54 was our most successfull ever, probably even better than the team that won the Junior cup in the following season, !954-55 although of course it did have many of the same players.

He went to St Mirren at the end of that season and went straight into the first team and captained the Scotland U-23 side that year which beat an England team with many players who went on to become full internationalist.Just before the start of the following season he had his leg broken in a training match by his own team mate, Willie Telfer, who later pl;ayed for Glasgow Rangers. He never made a real recovery from the injury but made a career as a physio and was with Mothrwell in that capacity for some years

A great story about and career summary of Bobby Holmes -  thank you. He must have had a friend in aircraft dispatch or an understanding Commanding Officer.

I had a look at that England Under-23 line-up you referred to and 10 of the players went on to win full international caps. England won 6:0 with Duncan Edwards scoring a hat-trick. I see Bobby also played (and got his revenge!) for the Scottish League in their 3:2 against the Football League at Ibrox in 1957. Bobby made the second Scottish goal for Tommy Ring.  The Football League team including Duncan Edwards and Tom Finney.

I heard a similar story about Jimmy Inglis in the 1950’s. The proven Scottish League goal poacher who started his career at Glasgow Perthshire signed for an English non-league club on a part-time basis and used the night mail trains in his job as a postman to make the 600-mile round trip for each game. This must have been tiring and it only lasted for 16 games but he managed 16 goals!

[bluedragon]

2 hours ago, gogsy said:

Scottish cup 1959/60 season Drumlembie flew up to play St Andrews United in the fourth round. (Machrihanish to Leuchars?)

Thanks for that. I had to look up Drumlembie on the map but you can see how air travel was a viable option. I have added the flight to my list.

[GordonS]

On 6/21/2017 at 19:42, Quantum Leap said:

Yes, it's one of the better threads I've read on P+B.

Not exactly what I had in mind at the start - "why do Medda have XI in their name" is a daft laddie question; "who played on ash parks in the 1920s" probably qualifies as a tougher question!

Brilliant read though, the history of Junior football has so many quirks and tales. Has anyone ever written a book collecting the best of them?

[garrellburn]

10 hours ago, bluedragon said:

A great story about and career summary of Bobby Holmes -  thank you. He must have had a friend in aircraft dispatch or an understanding Commanding Officer.

I had a look at that England Under-23 line-up you referred to and 10 of the players went on to win full international caps. England won 6:0 with Duncan Edwards scoring a hat-trick. I see Bobby also played (and got his revenge!) for the Scottish League in their 3:2 against the Football League at Ibrox in 1957. Bobby made the second Scottish goal for Tommy Ring.  The Football League team including Duncan Edwards and Tom Finney.

I heard a similar story about Jimmy Inglis in the 1950’s. The proven Scottish League goal poacher who started his career at Glasgow Perthshire signed for an English non-league club on a part-time basis and used the night mail trains in his job as a postman to make the 600-mile round trip for each game. This must have been tiring and it only lasted for 16 games but he managed 16 goals!

sorry about getting the facts mixed up about his Scotland appearances, I did remember the Duncan Edwards connection but should have checked out the result. We had signed Bobby from Campsie Black Watch a couple of years earlier and he had played in various positions, but it was only in mid season 53-54 when he took over the centre half role that he really became established. We had already lost two centre halfs with long term injuries that year, first Jimmy Falconer was injured in trhe first round Scottish cup tie against Armadale, which we lost in the replay. His replacement, John Bryden was also injured a couple of months later and Holmes was drafted in as a temporary measure. Being a National Serviceman he was not expected to be available regularly but fortunately it did work out and we went on to have our best ever season with five cups won including Evening Times (when it WAS a very prestigious trophy), West of Scotland, and Central League cup.

Incidentally Jimmy Falconer went to Duntocher Hibs when he recovered and captained them in the Scottish cup final which they lost 4-1 to Kilsyth in the replay at Hampden. Our legendary centre forward, Alex Querrie, scored all four goals in that game, the first time it had ever been done in a cup final at Hampden, and preceeding Puskas by some six years. His ultimate goal tally for us was 260 in six seasons. He had also scored a few with Forth Rangers before that but hard to find any documented figures. I know a few others in junior football may have had a higher total but getting definite figures is very elusive, can we have some claims please.

[bluedragon]

1 hour ago, garrellburn said:

Our legendary centre forward, Alex Querrie, scored all four goals in that game, the first time it had ever been done in a cup final at Hampden, and preceeding Puskas by some six years. His ultimate goal tally for us was 260 in six seasons. He had also scored a few with Forth Rangers before that but hard to find any documented figures. I know a few others in junior football may have had a higher total but getting definite figures is very elusive, can we have some claims please.

Thanks for sharing your memories of the players in a great Kilsyth Rangers team.

How can we resist the challenge you have laid down?

Davie Cook was Largs Thistle's leading goalscorer for eight consecutive seasons and I know he scored 157 goals in two seasons (see below). He might challenge your claim for Alex Querrie. 

I have only ever looked at goal scoring records for a season rather than club or career totals but, as you say, finding details is very difficult. Here are five players that would be at or near the top in a most- goals-in-a-season list. I have shown my source as well. If anyone knows more about these players, particularly Willie Gray, I would be interested to hear.

Tommy Duffy (Ardeer Thistle) 97 goals in ?? competitive matches in 1959/60 Season (Source: Guinness Book of Records) Given his record, it is surprising that Tommy arrived at Ardeer Thistle after a series of free transfers from Benburb, Renfrew and Duntocher Hibs.  

Alex Hair (Strathclyde) 96 goals in ?? competitive matches in 1922/23 season (Source: The history of Strathclyde FC written in 1936). Alex went on to be the only player to have scored five goals in a competitive match against Rangers when playing for Partick Thistle. He was turned down by Rangers a few years earlier for being “too wee” although he was actually the same height and weight as Hughie Gallacher who, along with Bob McPhail and Jimmy McGrory, was one of the top goalscorers of the day. Alex holds goalscoring records at clubs in Scotland, Republic of Ireland, Wales and England.

Davie Cook (Largs Thistle) 87 goals in 52 competitive matches in 1957/58 Season (Source: Largs Thistle History “Winning isn’t everything” by Stuart Robertson published in 2009). The Evening Times in April 1960 when tracking Tommy Duffy’s exploits, said Davie’s record was 84 goals but the Thistle history has the match-by-match analysis to arrive at 87 goals. Davie was a long-serving Largs player but also played for short spells at Saltcoats Victoria and Ardrossan Winton Rovers and was capped by Junior Scotland.

Willie Gray (Kilwinning Rangers) 83 goals in ?? competitive matches in (perhaps?) 1927/28 Season (Source: During the 1957/58 season “Puffer”, the pen name of the sports correspondent on the Troon & Prestwick Times, was following Davie Cook’s (Largs Thistle) goal-scoring with interest and as Willie Gray’s record drew closer he wrote that he had confirmed with Willie Gray himself that his record stood at 83 goals.)

Bobby Carroll (Irvine Meadow XI) 75 goals in ?? competitive matches in1958/59 Season (Source: Irvine Meadow XI historians). Bobby was voted Junior Player of the Year in the 1958/59 season. He had spent that season and the previous one as a provisional Celtic signing. He was called up by Celtic for the 1959/60 season. He later played for St Mirren, Dundee United, Coleraine & Queen of the South before returning to Meadow. He had a brief spell coaching at Yoker Athletic.

Davie Cook (Largs Thistle) 70 goals in ?? competitive matches in 1954/55 Season (Source: Largs Thistle History)

[Taxman]

23 hours ago, Shanner said:

Whether that's the actual origin or not it's really interesting to see posts like this. 

Even the late great Bob Crampsey never knew the answer to this, lost in the mists of time.

[Duraglit shareholder]

Thanks to all for taking time and effort in producing best thread from pie and bovril since joining,all posters should give themselves a pat for the interesting information provided,ive never heard of some of these teams and memories of Bailleston, that must have been a decent side in early 80's,what happened for them to disappear?Once again thanks for thread, it shows how good this forum can be at times when football is talked about rather than all the personal squabbles.