'Colt Clubs' & The Democratic Principle

[Monkey Tennis]

2 hours ago, Skyline Drifter said:

Yes, really. Like I already said. If Celtic's u20's can knock Albion Rovers out of the Challenge Cup then Albion Rovers didn't deserve to advance any further. 

That strikes me as a difficult position to defend, given that the competition was designed for clubs like Albion Rovers.

[Skyline Drifter]

1 minute ago, Monkey Tennis said:

That strikes me as a difficult position to defend, given that the competition was designed for clubs like Albion Rovers.

I don't see how. If you accept the clubs are entitled to enter a team in it (I know you don't but leaving that aside for the moment), why shouldn't they be entitled to win a game in it. It's the very ethos of cup competition.

If it's wrong that lower league clubs can be eliminated by a youth team why wasn't everybody up in arms about it when the likes of Brora and Spartans were invited in to it a few years ago to make up the numbers? The competition wasn't designed for those non league sides either and the likes of Brora who throw a lot of money about building a side to win the Highland League ever season but don't really want promotion could easily remove a few lower division sides from it.

I really don't get why this is an issue for people. I understand the point of view that it somehow devalues the competition having to play a team of kids and I understand the view that it's a pre-cursor for League involvement and shouldn't be encouraged. I don't understand why the possibility of them actually eliminating a league club is wrong though. I'd be much more offended by clubs getting eliminated by Welsh and Irish sides who fundamentally do nothing for Scottish football, whose domestic suspensions don't apply to this and who may very well form both halves of the finalists this year thereby leaving the final farcical (though I expect ICT to get through).

[vikingTON]

 

15 hours ago, Demented Zebra said:

We have such a good squad our bench has players most championship teams would have on the park. We have built a squad for promotion though needs strengthen for the top league. Can only see three points to Saints in a tough game. This is our season happy days. 

 

6 hours ago, Demented Zebra said:

Posted in the wrong thread but I'm sure you gathered that.                                                                

 

The only thing that we've gathered is that you've been tanking super-strength cider like a jakey tramp again. 

[KingfaetheSooth]

3 hours ago, Skyline Drifter said:

 

I think the issue of overage player involvement is an interesting one. On balance I'd rather they weren't allowed and certainly never any more than the present limit of 2.

It's a slippery slope though. It can start with two overaged players, then changed in subsequent seasons.  I can't see any reason god Colts except for the money it might bring clubs. It's been disastrous down South in the diddy  cup.

[Demented Zebra]

55 minutes ago, virginton said:

 

 

 

The only thing that we've gathered is that you've been tanking super-strength cider like a jakey tramp again. 

Burp ! What ? 

[Monkey Tennis]

6 hours ago, Skyline Drifter said:

I really don't get why this is an issue for people. I understand the point of view that it somehow devalues the competition having to play a team of kids and I understand the view that it's a pre-cursor for League involvement and shouldn't be encouraged. I don't understand why the possibility of them actually eliminating a league club is wrong though. 

I'm genuinely baffled by this perspective.

I know that you do appreciate how power and wealth operate in our game.  I do know also that you have a certain reverence for the Challenge Cup and recognise that it can have an impact for clubs.

And yet you're fine with the idea of those who already wield power irresponsibly,  invading this landscape, corrupting the competition and providing zero benefit for anyone?

Extraordinary.

 

[David W]

Clyde have said the idea is off the table.

 

Quote

Following queries from supporters on the subject of colt teams inclusion in SPFL League 2, the club can confirm that the idea, originating from two Premiership clubs, has now been discarded.

At no time did the SPFL formally engage with clubs on this idea. Had the club received a formal proposal, a consultation with supporters would have been carried out before any official response was returned.

Nevertheless, the club noted the concerns received from individuals and supporter groups following recent press reports around the idea.

The club remains open to considering any proposal for positive change in Scottish football, that is in the best interests of all clubs and the wider game, and formally put on the table by a governing body.

This position has also been communicated to the SPFL and all other League 2 chairman.

 

[roman_bairn]

Clyde have said the idea is off the table.
 

Following queries from supporters on the subject of colt teams inclusion in SPFL League 2, the club can confirm that the idea, originating from two Premiership clubs, has now been discarded.

At no time did the SPFL formally engage with clubs on this idea. Had the club received a formal proposal, a consultation with supporters would have been carried out before any official response was returned.

Nevertheless, the club noted the concerns received from individuals and supporter groups following recent press reports around the idea.

The club remains open to considering any proposal for positive change in Scottish football, that is in the best interests of all clubs and the wider game, and formally put on the table by a governing body.

This position has also been communicated to the SPFL and all other League 2 chairman.

 

Ok, if true, this is great, although the opportunity is still there for an alternative proposal involving the OF in future, so we need to be wary.
But delighted to see common sense has prevailed.
Now to campaign for their removal from the Challenge Cup.

[Skyline Drifter]

2 hours ago, Monkey Tennis said:

I'm genuinely baffled by this perspective.

I know that you do appreciate how power and wealth operate in our game.  I do know also that you have a certain reverence for the Challenge Cup and recognise that it can have an impact for clubs.

And yet you're fine with the idea of those who already wield power irresponsibly,  invading this landscape, corrupting the competition and providing zero benefit for anyone?

Extraordinary.

 

Thats quite a leap you are making there.

Yes I have no problem with Premiership youth teams taking part in a competition run by an organisation they are all members of. I dont see that as "invading"  or "corrupting" anything and the idea of clubs taking offence if they actually manage to lose to one seems ludicrous to me. These sides really arent very good. If someone is bad enough to lose to them so be it. Thats the nature of cup competition. 

I get that people are offended by the notion, but I dont agree. And I dont really think its consistent for the same people not to be equally offended by the presence of Brora or Spartans or Cumbernauld Colts but they dont seem to be. The principle isnt much different. I would argue the Colts sides have more right to enter.

Dont get me wrong, its not something I feel strongly about. I dont much care if they get removed from the Competition either. It will happen sooner or later given general fan attitude to it (unless the competition itself is binned first). I just dont have any problem with it either.

[Monkey Tennis]

2 minutes ago, Skyline Drifter said:

Thats quite a leap you are making there.

Yes I have no problem with Premiership youth teams taking part in a competition run by an organisation they are all members of. I dont see that as "invading"  or "corrupting" anything and the idea of clubs taking offence if they actually manage to lose to one seems ludicrous to me. These sides really arent very good. If someone is bad enough to lose to them so be it. Thats the nature of cup competition. 

I get that people are offended by the notion, but I dont agree. And I dont really think its consistent for the same people not to be equally offended by the presence of Brora or Spartans or Cumbernauld Colts but they dont seem to be. The principle isnt much different. I would argue the Colts sides have more right to enter.

Dont get me wrong, its not something I feel strongly about. I dont much care if they get removed from the Competition either. It will happen sooner or later given general fan attitude to it (unless the competition itself is binned first). I just dont have any problem with it either.

I feel strongly about the fact that you don't feel strongly about it.

No leaping required.

[GoTeamGaz]

Quote

Following queries from supporters on the subject of colt teams inclusion in SPFL League 2, the club can confirm that the idea, originating from two Premiership clubs, has now been discarded.

At no time did the SPFL formally engage with clubs on this idea. Had the club received a formal proposal, a consultation with supporters would have been carried out before any official response was returned.

Nevertheless, the club noted the concerns received from individuals and supporter groups following recent press reports around the idea.

The club remains open to considering any proposal for positive change in Scottish football, that is in the best interests of all clubs and the wider game, and formally put on the table by a governing body.

This position has also been communicated to the SPFL and all other League 2 chairman.

A few clubs have taken this route of plausible deniability. It absolutely reeks. It's well documented elsewhere that one of the OF youth lobbyists met, with the full knowledge and permission of the SPFL bosses, management level people of at least every L2 team.

Weasel words that do nothing to instil the confidence of fans that there isn't shady backroom meetings where dodgy deals are being agreed under the understanding that it's not an official meeting or a "formal proposal"

Nothing against Clyde specifically, others have used the same reasoning.

[BFTD]

15 minutes ago, GoTeamGaz said:

A few clubs have taken this route of plausible deniability. It absolutely reeks. It's well documented elsewhere that one of the OF youth lobbyists met, with the full knowledge and permission of the SPFL bosses, management level people of at least every L2 team.

Weasel words that do nothing to instil the confidence of fans that there isn't shady backroom meetings where dodgy deals are being agreed under the understanding that it's not an official meeting or a "formal proposal"

Nothing against Clyde specifically, others have used the same reasoning.

I was taking that as a dig at the SPFL for allowing the shady backroom stuff to go on; "first we heard about it was when we had Old Firm reps at the door, WTF is going on?"

Depressingly, your interpretation might be more accurate.

[Bully Wee Villa]

Can't argue with our statement. No official approach was made. If it was, we would consult with fans.

Even if a "proper" approach is forthcoming, if every club consults with their fans as we have promised to do, the idea is dead in the water.

[peternapper]

39 minutes ago, Bully Wee Villa said:

Can't argue with our statement. No official approach was made. If it was, we would consult with fans.

Even if a "proper" approach is forthcoming, if every club consults with their fans as we have promised to do, the idea is dead in the water.

Agree that was the position of quite a few clubs, that was basically the reply when contacting my own club about our position on this,  it was said that as their had been no official approach made so they could not comment until there was. It is a disgrace that a couple clubs & one of the ruling bodies of the game can get together then basically go out & spread a rumour to this extent rather than involving members fully from the start if they honestly thought it was for the good of the game rather than a bit of self interest to allow the continued domination of a couple clubs over the rest.

[GoTeamGaz]

If the OF had been sending reps around the country to meet players from clubs to talk about ideas they had for the future and gauge interest with the player then when the club brought it up the player went "I didn't tell you because there was no official approach made & if there is then I'll talk to you about it" then it turned out the SPFL had said they thought it was a good idea and knew all about it ...

[O'Kelly Isley III]

Thats quite a leap you are making there.
Yes I have no problem with Premiership youth teams taking part in a competition run by an organisation they are all members of. I dont see that as "invading"  or "corrupting" anything and the idea of clubs taking offence if they actually manage to lose to one seems ludicrous to me. These sides really arent very good. If someone is bad enough to lose to them so be it. Thats the nature of cup competition. 
I get that people are offended by the notion, but I dont agree. And I dont really think its consistent for the same people not to be equally offended by the presence of Brora or Spartans or Cumbernauld Colts but they dont seem to be. The principle isnt much different. I would argue the Colts sides have more right to enter.
Dont get me wrong, its not something I feel strongly about. I dont much care if they get removed from the Competition either. It will happen sooner or later given general fan attitude to it (unless the competition itself is binned first). I just dont have any problem with it either.

One club, one team. Discuss.

[peternapper]

17 minutes ago, O'Kelly Isley III said:

13 hours ago, Skyline Drifter said:

Thats quite a leap you are making there.
Yes I have no problem with Premiership youth teams taking part in a competition run by an organisation they are all members of. I dont see that as "invading"  or "corrupting" anything and the idea of clubs taking offence if they actually manage to lose to one seems ludicrous to me. These sides really arent very good. If someone is bad enough to lose to them so be it. Thats the nature of cup competition. 
I get that people are offended by the notion, but I dont agree. And I dont really think its consistent for the same people not to be equally offended by the presence of Brora or Spartans or Cumbernauld Colts but they dont seem to be. The principle isnt much different. I would argue the Colts sides have more right to enter.
Dont get me wrong, its not something I feel strongly about. I dont much care if they get removed from the Competition either. It will happen sooner or later given general fan attitude to it (unless the competition itself is binned first). I just dont have any problem with it either.

One club, one team. Discuss.

No discussion required, that is the way it should be end of.

 

[Guest Flash]

14 hours ago, Skyline Drifter said:

Thats quite a leap you are making there.

Yes I have no problem with Premiership youth teams taking part in a competition run by an organisation they are all members of. I dont see that as "invading"  or "corrupting" anything and the idea of clubs taking offence if they actually manage to lose to one seems ludicrous to me. These sides really arent very good. If someone is bad enough to lose to them so be it. Thats the nature of cup competition. 

I get that people are offended by the notion, but I dont agree. And I dont really think its consistent for the same people not to be equally offended by the presence of Brora or Spartans or Cumbernauld Colts but they dont seem to be. The principle isnt much different. I would argue the Colts sides have more right to enter.

Dont get me wrong, its not something I feel strongly about. I dont much care if they get removed from the Competition either. It will happen sooner or later given general fan attitude to it (unless the competition itself is binned first). I just dont have any problem with it either.

It is you who is making a leap - backwards. This discussion isn’t about an U20 team somehow beating a league team. It arose from your comment which was along the lines of “if U20 teams get through a few rounds then so much the better.” So your original stance was that Premiership U20 clubs progressing through the rounds at the expense of lower league clubs is a good thing. Now it has become an odd U20 team winning the odd game wouldn’t be a bad thing. And they’re not very good anyway, so it isn’t going to happen.

So at what point would it, in your view, become a bad thing, if ever? Would it be ok if the entire last 8 was made up of U20 Premiership clubs? Would it be ok if the final was between Celtic and Rangers U20s? Every year?

However, if you can’t see the difference between Rangers benefitting at the expense of a lower league club and Brora Rangers benefitting, then no amount of explaining is going to change your mind on this.

[Monkey Tennis]

6 hours ago, Flash said:

However, if you can’t see the difference between Rangers benefitting at the expense of a lower league club and Brora Rangers benefitting, then no amount of explaining is going to change your mind on this.

Spot on.

It's the bit I find baffling.  

[Skyline Drifter]

57 minutes ago, Monkey Tennis said:

Spot on.

It's the bit I find baffling.  

I dont understand why, leaving aside your dislike of all things Rangers, the pair of you find it baffling. It is an SPFL competition, run and funded by the SPFL. Rangers are a member of the SPFL and I dont have any great issue with them participating in the competition with a youth team. Brora Rangers are not members of the SPFL. I think there's a good argument that inviting non member clubs in is a more controversial step. To be clear, I am NOT against Brora et al being in it. I just think they have less of a case to be. 

We are going round in circles here and getting nowhere though. As I said all along, I am aware my view is not shared by many and I didnt intend to get into any great debate about it. I know I cant win it. It all comes from MT asking why I thought the cup was different from the League. I am, and remain, dead against Colt teams being allowed in the League.

Oh and to clarify for Flash, I didnt mean that Colt teams winning a few rounds would be something I would want. I meant it was "so much the better" for THEM. Personally if they are in the Cup, I dont care much whether they win or lose any game. I dont have any issue at all with the last 8 all being Colt teams if they earn their place by winning games, just as I dont have any issue if they are all League 2 teams. I dont much care who is in the last 8 if it isnt us, though generally I would always prefer a Scottish side to beat one of the foreign ones.