'Colt Clubs' & The Democratic Principle

[ginge123]

For some reason it won't quote the first part of your post.

Like, I've said multiple times. I have no idea if it will help or not but it's worthwhile actually basing any opinion as to whether it would improve player development on a modicum of research based evidence rather than knee jerk reaction.

Actually investigating the feasibility of the idea is what's most likely to kill it off, provided the findings show that it would have a negligible effect in player development.

I actually agree with Moonster when he says that there's an attitude problem within Scottish football that's stilting progression. He mentioned Ryan Gauld and Oliver Burke as being examples of players that we've produced, which by the way is potentially a massive stick to beat the Colt system with since Gauld has gone to Portugal and ended up stagnating in the their version of it, and those are the players we should be looking at when we're talking about how we develop our players and encourage them to look at new ways of playing the game.

There's too much bashing of the idea based on very little evidence. The only thing I'm advocating is that we actually have an evidence based discussion around how it would work and what it's affects would be.

[Nowhereman]

22 minutes ago, ginge123 said:

 

For some reason it won't quote the first part of your post.

Like, I've said multiple times. I have no idea if it will help or not but it's worthwhile actually basing any opinion as to whether it would improve player development on a modicum of research based evidence rather than knee jerk reaction.

Actually investigating the feasibility of the idea is what's most likely to kill it off, provided the findings show that it would have a negligible effect in player development.

I actually agree with Moonster when he says that there's an attitude problem within Scottish football that's stilting progression. He mentioned Ryan Gauld and Oliver Burke as being examples of players that we've produced, which by the way is potentially a massive stick to beat the Colt system with since Gauld has gone to Portugal and ended up stagnating in the their version of it, and those are the players we should be looking at when we're talking about how we develop our players and encourage them to look at new ways of playing the game.

There's too much bashing of the idea based on very little evidence. The only thing I'm advocating is that we actually have an evidence based discussion around how it would work and what it's affects would be.

 

It's a fair point that we should look at evidence. However even if the evidence pointed to Colt teams leading to a massive improvement in standards and Scotland having a team able to challenge the best many fans would still be against it just on the principle that a league system shouldn't include two versions of any one club

[lanky_ffc]

15 minutes ago, ginge123 said:

 There's too much bashing of the idea based on very little evidence. The only thing I'm advocating is that we actually have an evidence based discussion around how it would work and what it's affects would be.

Herein lies another problem. The powers that be are unlikely to conduct a proper investigation on the merits of it since the sole aim appears to be giving two teams a B side in the lower leagues with youth development a convenient charade.

[ginge123]

It's a fair point that we should look at evidence. However even if the evidence pointed to Colt teams leading to a massive improvement in standards and Scotland having a team able to challenge the best many fans would still be against it just on the principle that a league system shouldn't include two versions of any one club

That should be taken in to consideration. If I'm being completely honest, it's not something that would bother me but, as is very clearly exhibited in this thread, it clearly is a massive consideration for some.

Herein lies another problem. The powers that be are unlikely to conduct a proper investigation on the merits of it since the sole aim appears to be giving two teams a B side in the lower leagues with youth development a convenient charade.

I'd imagine they also know that when presented any Colts proposal with all evidence, it wouldn't hold up as a viable plan.

[knee jerk reaction]

on principle I wouldn't be against the idea as it does seem to be no problem in other countries however here it would probably be 2 colt teams from rangers and celtic. I could see bigger crowds with a couple of hundred away fans as opposed to 30 or 40 from lower league teams at the moment. the problem I see with this is that it'd be bad for teams in the long run!

for example, say Arbroath v stenhousemuir, maybe 30 away fans or Arbroath v rangers/celtic colts with 250 away fans. I looks like a no brainer but I'd suggest the away fans would mostly come from the local area and younger fans who are maybe to young to travel to Glasgow getting taken to a local game and seeing the local team as the opposition. it'd make kids and adult old firm fans even less likely to support or change towards their local team.

(the crowd figures are just as an example, whether they'd be bigger or smaller, who knows?)

 

[DA Baracus]

They'd be smaller. We already know this.

[1320Lichtie]

on principle I wouldn't be against the idea as it does seem to be no problem in other countries however here it would probably be 2 colt teams from rangers and celtic. I could see bigger crowds with a couple of hundred away fans as opposed to 30 or 40 from lower league teams at the moment. the problem I see with this is that it'd be bad for teams in the long run!
for example, say Arbroath v stenhousemuir, maybe 30 away fans or Arbroath v rangers/celtic colts with 250 away fans. I looks like a no brainer but I'd suggest the away fans would mostly come from the local area and younger fans who are maybe to young to travel to Glasgow getting taken to a local game and seeing the local team as the opposition. it'd make kids and adult old firm fans even less likely to support or change towards their local team.
(the crowd figures are just as an example, whether they'd be bigger or smaller, who knows?)
 

That would of course be cancelled out by no Arbroath fans turning up cause they'll have chucked lower league football after The OF decided to use their league for their bairns (who are fucking gash btw) glorified friendly exhibitions.

[knee jerk reaction]

1 hour ago, 1320Lichtie said:

 

 

That would of course be cancelled out by no Arbroath fans turning up cause they'll have chucked lower league football after The OF decided to use their league for their bairns (who are fucking gash btw) glorified friendly exhibitions.

 

so Arbroath, stenny, Forfar, east fife etc etc who all have fans who have followed them for years even generations would all just stop going if colt teams were let into the lower leagues? how would it work with bigger clubs, if a Dunfermline or Falkirk went down, would thousands just stop going, maybe go again when they go back up away from the colts? if fans of all clubs ignored their principles and still went to games v rangers after their demise and re-entry into the league then I doubt there'd be a massive stand against colt teams in the league.

like I said I'm not against the idea in principle but I don't think it'd be a good idea in practice. I seen Falkirk under 20 team play both rangers and celtic last season and against each the crowd was bigger than other development league games and the difference was mainly local rangers/celtic fans, which to me can only be a bad thing for local clubs.

[Jan Vojáček]

Celtic U20s wouldn't take 250 fans to Arbroath. Old Firm fans have no interest in watching lower league football, never mind youth football.

[RandomGuy.]

There's no benefit to Colt teams, none. A swathe of the U20s aren't even Scottish FFS. Playing in front of 200 people against Edinburgh City isn't going to help these players cope with "pressure" to the point they'll be comfortable playing in front of 50,000 at Hampden either.

Barca and Reals "colt" teams aren't Colt teams, 60% of their squads are "overage". It's just a B side that helps them stockpile players.

[Poet of the Macabre]

15 hours ago, ginge123 said:

For some reason it won't quote the first part of your post.

Like, I've said multiple times. I have no idea if it will help or not but it's worthwhile actually basing any opinion as to whether it would improve player development on a modicum of research based evidence rather than knee jerk reaction.

Actually investigating the feasibility of the idea is what's most likely to kill it off, provided the findings show that it would have a negligible effect in player development.

I actually agree with Moonster when he says that there's an attitude problem within Scottish football that's stilting progression. He mentioned Ryan Gauld and Oliver Burke as being examples of players that we've produced, which by the way is potentially a massive stick to beat the Colt system with since Gauld has gone to Portugal and ended up stagnating in the their version of it, and those are the players we should be looking at when we're talking about how we develop our players and encourage them to look at new ways of playing the game.

There's too much bashing of the idea based on very little evidence. The only thing I'm advocating is that we actually have an evidence based discussion around how it would work and what it's affects would be.

 

What "evidence" are you looking for exactly? Do you *honestly* believe the yarn about this being all for player development? It's a contingency plan in case the gruesome twosome get their desired move down south, so they can have one team playing in the EPL and another swatting aside diddies for those who can't afford the train down to London, Manchester etc.

[P475]

7 minutes ago, Poet of the Macabre said:

What "evidence" are you looking for exactly? Do you *honestly* believe the yarn about this being all for player development? It's a contingency plan in case the gruesome twosome get their desired move down south, so they can have one team playing in the EPL and another swatting aside diddies for those who can't afford the train down to London, Manchester etc.

You're not the first person I've heard saying this. 

Most people I've spoken to about this say it's all about what the bigot bros want, and our clubs won't really get a say on the matter. 

What the bigots want, the bigots get, and we'll just have to like it or lump it. 

[football maniac]

I think it could have potential in certain circumstances.

1 If the Old Firm move down south and are allowed to include some overage players it may well be that the chance to see some potential stars would appeal to fans. E.g someone coming back from injury. If the Old Firm somehow moved down to England I have no doubt they could attract just about anyone they want and therefore the chance could be there for Gayfield to see a genuine superstar which could keep crowds high and interested. Maybe making it mandatory to have to include so many overage players could be done?

2 Playing consistently together as a team rather than dotted out on loan all over the place could eventually help the national team. Playing together at a good level will help these boys so much.

3. How are attendances and perception of B teams viewed in Spain? How do attendances of Barca B teams compare to the average segunda league match?

4. We are very closed to change but this attitude has seen us been truly dog shite lately both in Europe with club teams and in qualifiers for majors. What we are doing now is clearly not working and even though I'm a Qos fan and shouldn't care about this stuff it bothers me our teams are consistently put out by no hopers. Something needs to change as the young players we have produced haven't been good enough. Look at Hearts when they were docked points! They were basically a colts team but the forced inclusion of these boys together made them a right good team. Nicholson, Walker, Paterson, McGhee, McKay, King may never of got a chance and this shows playing at a good level consistently can speed up improvement. If our national team, coefficient and everything else improves who knows maybe this could benefit us no end? It probably wont but folk shouldn't be so quick to dismiss an idea before its given a chance

[The Moonster]

Barcelona B's highest home attendance last season was just over 3,000 for a match against Espanyol B. The lowest attendance was 843 against Atletico Saguntino. Their average was about 1,600. They also "won" their league.

If arguably the biggest team in the world only pull in those numbers for a B side, I genuinely can't see how Rangers or Celtic B make any kind of difference to attendances at all here.

[DA Baracus]

8 minutes ago, football maniac said:

I think it could have potential in certain circumstances.

1 If the Old Firm move down south and are allowed to include some overage players it may well be that the chance to see some potential stars would appeal to fans. E.g someone coming back from injury. If the Old Firm somehow moved down to England I have no doubt they could attract just about anyone they want and therefore the chance could be there for Gayfield to see a genuine superstar which could keep crowds high and interested. Maybe making it mandatory to have to include so many overage players could be done?

2 Playing consistently together as a team rather than dotted out on loan all over the place could eventually help the national team. Playing together at a good level will help these boys so much.

3. How are attendances and perception of B teams viewed in Spain? How do attendances of Barca B teams compare to the average segunda league match?

4. We are very closed to change but this attitude has seen us been truly dog shite lately both in Europe with club teams and in qualifiers for majors. What we are doing now is clearly not working and even though I'm a Qos fan and shouldn't care about this stuff it bothers me our teams are consistently put out by no hopers. Something needs to change as the young players we have produced haven't been good enough. Look at Hearts when they were docked points! They were basically a colts team but the forced inclusion of these boys together made them a right good team. Nicholson, Walker, Paterson, McGhee, McKay, King may never of got a chance and this shows playing at a good level consistently can speed up improvement. If our national team, coefficient and everything else improves who knows maybe this could benefit us no end? It probably wont but folk shouldn't be so quick to dismiss an idea before its given a chance

1. Pish.

2. Shite.

3. Bollocks.

4. w**k.

[GoTeamGaz]

Is there a lack of talent? Isn't there just a lack of desire? Our nation doesn't throw up enough young people that are hungry enough to put in enough training/work/effort to reach a higher level.

What's actually required, surely, is a national campaign of motivational/life coaching provided by the SFA at all clubs that teaches them the value of the opportunity they have and clamps down on 'bantz'.

[Enigma]

Maybe the answer is to have just one 'colt' team playing in Legue One or below. Have the SFA run it and play out of Lesser Hampden. The creme of promising youngsters can be loaned to this team for a season or two. Could potentially benefit a number of clubs and also it would be focussed on 'elite' youth development which seems to be the buzzword at the moment.

[DA Baracus]

4 minutes ago, GoTeamGaz said:

Is there a lack of talent? Isn't there just a lack of desire? Our nation doesn't throw up enough young people that are hungry enough to put in enough training/work/effort to reach a higher level.

What's actually required, surely, is a national campaign of motivational/life coaching provided by the SFA at all clubs that teaches them the value of the opportunity they have and clamps down on 'bantz'.

You often hear about how Cristiano Ronaldo is at training sometimes hours before his team mates and often hours after. Then you hear about the hours he spends in the gym as well.

You then hear of players in Scotland in the bookies just after 12.00, or playing pool at 13.00.

To be fair I think things have improved in Scottish football on this front, especially from the 1990s, but I still think Scottish players lag way behind in this regard.

 

[GoTeamGaz]

I know people hate comparing things to other countries & sports but if you look at the hours NFL players put in at their facilities, team training, individual training, studying tapes of opposition and spending time just talking over tactics. Then in their free time 99% of them, unforced, work for community groups and charities (mostly their own), many of them doing manual labour, building shelters for homeless people and working with underprivileged youth in their communities. They have it drilled in to them that their opportunity is not just for them, or their families but a chance to raise the life of their entire communities. Of course there's still the odd one that get's mixed up in drugs & domestic abuse and what not but by and large they train hard, work hard and give back.

Obviously not a blueprint but surely some things can be learned from.

[lanky_ffc]

2 hours ago, football maniac said:

1 If the Old Firm move down south and are allowed to include some overage players it may well be that the chance to see some potential stars would appeal to fans. E.g someone coming back from injury. If the Old Firm somehow moved down to England I have no doubt they could attract just about anyone they want and therefore the chance could be there for Gayfield to see a genuine superstar which could keep crowds high and interested. Maybe making it mandatory to have to include so many overage players could be done?

I think you'd be hard pressed to find anyone that would rate the opportunity to see a Premier League player (playing amongst youths/reserves) as a higher priority than the success of their own team. If I want to see that calibre of player, I'll go down to Manchester/London to see a full team of them and make a weekend of it.