Junior football, what is the future?

[Doonhamer1969]

29 minutes ago, Footballfirst said:

It's nor an either or choice as you've set out. The Junior Cup is already a national competition covering all regions while the South Challenge cup is a regional competition.

I would like to see (in time) a national competition involving all non SPFL clubs.

I don't know the figures, but I'm sure that the Junior Cup will have had 200+ entries in the past.

It isnt a 'national competition'.

10 out of Scotland's 32 regions dont have a single Junior club, and one has barely any, comprising 65% of the country by area.

 

[Footballfirst]

3 minutes ago, Doonhamer1969 said:

It isnt a 'national competition'.

10 out of Scotland's 32 regions dont have a single Junior club, and one has barely any, comprising 65% of the country by area.

 

It is a national competition as far as junior clubs are concerned. If you want to use council areas to define football "regions", then the SPFL is hardly a national competition. There are huge areas of the West, North West and South East of Scotland  that have no SPFL sides.

[wow-wee]

Hampden has a has a nice museum for it to sit proudly for future generations to see it was a great competition to compete in but it's been in slow decline over the years and when you see less than 500 spectators turning up at a semi-final that tells the whole story . I'm sure a new competition will evolve that will get everyone looking forward to be involved in . 

[Burnie_man]

36 minutes ago, Footballfirst said:

I don't think that the comparison is fair one.  The SL evolved following the breakaway of the SPL in 1998(?) and it continued as the SFL until the two organisations merged as the SPFL in 2013. The competing clubs have largely maintained their status throughout and only in recent years have we seen new clubs enter as the league expanded to 42, then opened itself up to the possibility of promotion/relegation to/from the league.

It's fair comparison, of course it is, it's an old Scottish football body who ceased to exist. One of the worlds first football leagues (second oldest?)

[Burnie_man]

4 minutes ago, wow-wee said:

Hampden has a has a nice museum for it to sit proudly for future generations to see it was a great competition to compete in but it's been in slow decline over the years and when you see less than 500 spectators turning up at a semi-final that tells the whole story . I'm sure a new competition will evolve that will get everyone looking forward to be involved in . 

The original trophy was replaced about 10 years ago, and I believe the original is already in the museum somewhere.

[FairWeatherFan]

12 minutes ago, Burnie_man said:

The original trophy was replaced about 10 years ago, and I believe the original is already in the museum somewhere.

Then I don't really care about keeping the trophy on anymore. Either the pyramid leagues ask the SFA to create a competition or the LL/EoS/SoS rebrand the SFA South Region Challenge Cup into something more inclusive and ask the HL to join. The HL might well reject paricipating the first season or two due ot fitting it into their calendar. However, i'm sure they'll come round and shouldn't stop SFA South Region Challenge Cup going through a rebranding.

EDIT: Drum up a sponsor change the name. Nobody will notice if the HFL aren't involved, especially if it comes with a bunch of West of Scotland clubs joining.

Edited February 6, 2020 by FairWeatherFan

[Che Dail]

2 hours ago, pipedreamer said:

No it doesn’t, option W has the ersjfa and nrsjfa outside the pyramid process.

Is it...?  That makes sense though - it kind of looks like they're feeding into the HFL the way it is illustrated.

[wow-wee]

10 minutes ago, Burnie_man said:

The original trophy was replaced about 10 years ago, and I believe the original is already in the museum somewhere.

I think your right was the original trophy got stolen or damaged in the 1920s they had to make a new one unless that was the FA cup in sure the historians on here will know.

[Burnie_man]

6 minutes ago, wow-wee said:

I think your right was the original trophy got stolen or damaged in the 1920s they had to make a new one unless that was the FA cup in sure the historians on here will know.

The original trophy was replaced after 11 years, it was replaced by a much bigger one which is the one we see today, which is an exact copy with the original in the museum.

The very first trophy (the first 11 years) was donated by Percival King, who also donated the King Cup, still played for today by the EoS.

EDIT  "This season (2007) will see the Scottish Junior F.A. purchase a replacement Cup. An identical replica of the existing cup, which is now starting to show signs of wear and tear after a hundred years of all sorts of beverages being sampled from it on Cup Final day - and beyond.

The present trophy is not the original one : research shows the original trophy which was in existence for eleven years - the last club to receive it being Strathclyde in 1897 - was presented to the Association by an Edinburgh businessman, Percival King, and the trophy was originally the King Challenge Cup.

The present Junior cup was purchased on 7 August 1897 and it cost £50 - slightly less than the recently ordered replacement!"

Edited February 6, 2020 by Burnie_man

[Che Dail]

2 hours ago, Bestsinceslicebread said:

W - the WRSJFA Premiership ONLY is linked into the Pyramid at Tier 6 (i.e. below the Lowland League and equal in status to the EoSL Premier Division and the SoSL) for season 2020-21. The champions of each, IF LICENSED, qualify to play off for promotion to the LL. The WRSJFA Championship, League One and League Two will effectively be placed at Tiers 7 to 8. The ERSJFA and the NRSJFA remain outside the Pyramid.

As far as I'm aware Never was it mentioned in option W that E|RSJFA and NRSJFA go into tier 8.
Option W, was a straight forward option for the whole West Region to join in with the top league in at  tier 6.

I believe it was devised so that it could go in easily and seamlessly and let the East and North be sorted at a later time as it looked more problematic

Ok, understood.  Now rummaging through the bin for that Option W.... 

Would love to believe that this could be implemented and taken forward positively by the right people.  

 

[wow-wee]

1 minute ago, Burnie_man said:

The original trophy was replaced after 11 years, it was replaced by a much bigger one which is the one we see today, which is an exact copy with the original in the museum.

The very first tropy was donater by Percival King, who also donated the King Cup, still played for today by the EoS.

Well I think we will all agree give the present one to talbot if the competition is no longer played .

[Doonhamer1969]

2 minutes ago, Footballfirst said:

It is a national competition as far as junior clubs are concerned. If you want to use council areas to define football "regions", then the SPFL is hardly a national competition. There are huge areas of the West, North West and South East of Scotland  that have no SPFL sides.

SPFL covers 22 ouf of 32 council areas, 22 out of 29 mainland ones. Add in the Lowland and EOS and you've got  25,. That's the lot covered apart from Argyll, East Dunbartonshire, East Renfrewshire, North  Ayrshire and the 3 island authorities. Only 3 of those 7 are covered by the Juniors.

A lot more 'national' than the Juniors.

[Jerry Macguire]

1 hour ago, gogsy said:

Sentimental nonsense.

Football Nations Qualifying Cup?

[Guest]

Why does the junior cup have to remain? There is already cups within the pyramid that are national competitions and provide access to the senior scottish thereafter winning it.

This is part of the issue, we will join but we want a league position at tier 5, then tier 6 now we want a cup.......there is little to be gained by keeping it for me.

[Doonhamer1969]

9 hours ago, Beenzon-Toste said:

Nonsense?
Of course it's nonsense.
Who would have thought that those nice guys in the LL and the EOSL could come up with something so machiavellian?

This entire saga would have had Machiavelli tearing his hair out, and looking like an absolute amateur at his own game.

[Dev]

3 hours ago, Burnie_man said:

Best to retire the Junior Cup and if there's a demand, start an SFA backed non-league competition with the final at Hampden (now that the SFA will own it)

Surely the eventual answer is three competitions:

[a] For licenced non-league teams (rather than clubs) only.

For unlicenced non-league teams (rather than clubs) playing in the Pyramid.

[c] Amateur Cup - all other teams.

Edited February 6, 2020 by Dev
correction

[Burnie_man]

5 minutes ago, Dev said:

Surely the eventual answer is three competitions:

[a] For licenced non-league teams (rather than clubs) only.

For unlicenced non-league teams (rather than clubs) playing in the Pyramid.

[c] Amateur Cup - all other teams.

 

We don't need multiple national non-league comps, we'll be lucky to have one.

[FairWeatherFan]

4 minutes ago, Dev said:

Surely the eventual answer is three competitions:

[a] For licenced non-league teams (rather than clubs) only.

For unlicenced non-league teams (rather than clubs) playing in the Pyramid.

[c] Amateur Cup - all other teams.

The EoS already has the Alex Jack Cup and the SoS has the Alba Cup which are for unlicenced non-league teams. Those competitions get played at the same days as the licenced teams compete in the Scottish Cup.

To have another cup competition for just licenced non-league teams would have to happen on different days to the Scottish Cup. So you're then asking the unlicenced teams to be idle. You might as well have all the licenced and unlicenced non-league teams in the same competition.

 

[stanley]

8 minutes ago, Dev said:

Surely the eventual answer is three competitions:

[a] For licenced non-league teams (rather than clubs) only.

For unlicenced non-league teams (rather than clubs) playing in the Pyramid.

[c] Amateur Cup - all other teams.

Why split up the licensed and unlicensed teams like that?  

Either have a non-league cup for all or one for all but the north (if they don't want in) i.e. the South Region Challenge Cup.  If the amateurs ever link up then you can have two different main cups like the FA Trophy and FA Vase in England.  

Edited February 6, 2020 by stanley

[Ginaro]

I really don't think it's that difficult.

If there's a WOS league next season it gets added to the South Challenge Cup regulations as one of the eligible leagues, these clubs will now be senior so can't play in the Junior Cup.

The same can be done if the entire West Region moved into tier 6-9, and it would then be a replacement for the Junior Cup.

However if the SJFA want the Junior Cup to be the non-league cup instead, they can change their rules and invite senior clubs, then a discussion can take place about the different regulations (reimbursement of travel costs, split gates, replays, etc).