Junior football, what is the future?

[Bestsinceslicebread]

31 minutes ago, Che Dail said:

Option W has the SJFA East and North regions at Tier 7 alongside the EoS conferences -  That's not going to work, particularly as you may have some EoS clubs at T8 next season.

So that option as presented can probably go in the bin as well.

W - the WRSJFA Premiership ONLY is linked into the Pyramid at Tier 6 (i.e. below the Lowland League and equal in status to the EoSL Premier Division and the SoSL) for season 2020-21. The champions of each, IF LICENSED, qualify to play off for promotion to the LL. The WRSJFA Championship, League One and League Two will effectively be placed at Tiers 7 to 8. The ERSJFA and the NRSJFA remain outside the Pyramid.

As far as I'm aware Never was it mentioned in option W that E|RSJFA and NRSJFA go into tier 8.
Option W, was a straight forward option for the whole West Region to join in with the top league in at  tier 6.

I believe it was devised so that it could go in easily and seamlessly and let the East and North be sorted at a later time as it looked more problematic

Edited February 6, 2020 by Bestsinceslicebread

[BS7]

15 minutes ago, Bestsinceslicebread said:

W - the WRSJFA Premiership ONLY is linked into the Pyramid at Tier 6 (i.e. below the Lowland League and equal in status to the EoSL Premier Division and the SoSL) for season 2020-21. The champions of each, IF LICENSED, qualify to play off for promotion to the LL. The WRSJFA Championship, League One and League Two will effectively be placed at Tiers 7 to 8. The ERSJFA and the NRSJFA remain outside the Pyramid.

As far as I'm aware Never was it mentioned in option W that E|RSJFA and NRSJFA go into tier 8.
Option W, was a straight forward option for the whole West Region to join in with the top league in at  tier 6.

I believe it was devised so that it could go in easily and seamlessly and let the East and North be sorted at a later time as it looked more problematic

I realize this is probably old ground - but what happens to the junior cup in that scenario with teams in and out the pyramid?

[Bestsinceslicebread]

14 minutes ago, BS7 said:

I realize this is probably old ground - but what happens to the junior cup in that scenario with teams in and out the pyramid?

The teams out of the pyramid is meant that the east and north juniors are still in the junior association, (they haven't moved) so id expect them to be in the Scottish junior cup.  The west teams would have been part of the pyramid  would have been in the Scottish challenge cup as far as I'm aware.

 

I'm sure that is correct or the plan, as I'm sure someone can concur or correct me where necessary.

Edited February 6, 2020 by Bestsinceslicebread
spelling, again :-(

[Footballfirst]

4 minutes ago, BS7 said:

I realize this is probably old ground - but what happens to the junior cup in that scenario with teams in and out the pyramid?

If the SJFA finally embraces change and accepts a staged integration into the pyramid, then I don't see why the Junior Cup can't continue, initially as a national competition for unlicensed clubs (inside and outside the pyramid), but eventually become the premier national competition for all non SPFL clubs.

It might need some adjustment to the entry lists for some existing cups, but would be perfectly feasible. 

[FairWeatherFan]

13 minutes ago, Bestsinceslicebread said:

The teams out of the pyramid is meant that the east and north juniors are still in the junior association, (they haven't moved) so id expect them to be in the Scottish junior cup.  The west teams would have been part of the pyramid  would have been in the Scottish challenge cup as far as I'm aware.

 

I'm sure that is correct or the plan, as I'm sure someone can concur or correct me where necessary.

I don't think they would ever have gotten that far into it. Chances are with so few West Region clubs entering the 2020-21 Scottish Cup they could still continue in the Junior Cup with little amendment. Once you head into 2021-22 there would probably have to be changes.

[FairWeatherFan]

2 minutes ago, gogsy said:

Scottish Junior cup 63 West teams + 70  others (East and North juniors) or

South Challenge cup 63 West Teams + 70 teams LL/EOS/SOS + Glasgow Uni

Junior Cup also comes with guaranteed prize money for the semi finalists and finalists, it is also a route into the Scottish Cup.

[Footballfirst]

6 minutes ago, gogsy said:

Scottish Junior cup 63 West teams + 70  others (East and North juniors) or

South Challenge cup 63 West Teams + 70 teams LL/EOS/SOS + Glasgow Uni

It's nor an either or choice as you've set out. The Junior Cup is already a national competition covering all regions while the South Challenge cup is a regional competition.

I would like to see (in time) a national competition involving all non SPFL clubs.

I don't know the figures, but I'm sure that the Junior Cup will have had 200+ entries in the past.

Edited February 6, 2020 by Footballfirst

[Burnie_man]

3 minutes ago, Footballfirst said:

It's nor an either or choice as you've set out. The Junior Cup is already a national competition covering all regions while the South Challenge cup is a regional competition.

I would like to see (in time) a national competition involving all non SPFL clubs.

I don't know the figures, but I'm sure that the Junior Cup will have had 200+ entries in the past.

Best to retire the Junior Cup and if there's a demand, start an SFA backed non-league competition with the final at Hampden (now that the SFA will own it)

[Marshmallo]

1 minute ago, gogsy said:

Highland league aren't interested in a national non league competition either.

X amount of prize money to a certain number of teams and that would change I'm sure.

[Footballfirst]

7 minutes ago, Burnie_man said:

Best to retire the Junior Cup and if there's a demand, start an SFA backed non-league competition with the final at Hampden (now that the SFA will own it)

I think its a trophy and a competition that all current and former junior clubs would like to retain in existence. In my opinion to "retire" it would be disrespectful to all those clubs who have competed for it in the past as well as the present.

As you suggest, an SFA backed competition would be appropriate, but I think it would need two or three seasons transition from a 100% junior to a 100% pyramid, or a 100% pyramid + the rump of the Juniors.

The tier 5 clubs could be given a first round bye if too many games was a problem for them.  

Edited February 6, 2020 by Footballfirst

[FairWeatherFan]

4 minutes ago, gogsy said:

Highland league aren't interested in a national non league competition either.

Don't think anyone's bothered to present them with one. They competed in the last attempted Inter-League trophy with the SoS and EoS. They carried on the North Challenge Cup until the SFA subsidy ran out. Since the North Challenge Cup was essentially the Highland League Cup and they were expanding the league they scrapped it.

Edited February 6, 2020 by FairWeatherFan

[Burnie_man]

Just now, Footballfirst said:

I think its a trophy and a competition that all current and former junior clubs would like to retain in existence. In my opinion to "retire" it would be disrespectful to all those clubs who have competed for it in the past as well as the present.

As you suggest, an SFA backed competition would be appropriate, but I think it would need two or three seasons transition from a 100% junior to a 100% pyramid, or a 100% (pyramid + the rump of the Juniors)  

I know for a fact there's ex-Juniors clubs who are not that fussed about it.  Why would it be "disrespectful" to retire it if there's no Junior game left to enable it to continue?

There's no call at the moment in the Seniors for a national non league competition.

[Footballfirst]

5 minutes ago, gogsy said:

Sentimental nonsense.

If you are happy to disband and dismiss a competition that has been running for more than 130 years then that's your choice. 

I think its worth keeping and would like to see it retained in some form, whether or not the juniors join the pyramid as a whole or in part. 

Edited February 6, 2020 by Footballfirst

[lowenan]

A WOSFL is the best option. A clean slate, and those who don’t want to go, can stay. 

[Doonhamer1969]

7 hours ago, Bestsinceslicebread said:

Been reading this today, the past few pages and it does seemed to turn more as if the EOS, LL and SOS wanted rid of the SJFA.  I didn't see it that way on all the readings on here and other medium and chatting to others.  They wanted the West region to come over as one to start a WOS, (who was in control, no one said, it seemed like the west region association guys would be the men) but with the carry on with the SJFA saying NO unless its all the junior regions join, (which don't think anyone would have bothered about) but in the way that they junior association want.  It does sound like the seniors have just lost patience with the stubborn junior association and now its an open book, if you want your team to come under our umbrella then show your interest.  Everyone is in agreement that there should be a WOS so me personally, I want to see one as soon as.

'It does sound like the seniors have just lost patience with the stubborn junior association'.......

Yes.

[Burnie_man]

5 minutes ago, Footballfirst said:

If you are happy to disband and dismiss a competition that has been running for more than 130 years then that's your choice. 

I think its worth keeping and would like to see it retained in some form, whether or not the juniors join the pyramid as a whole or in part. 

The Scottish Football League ceased to exist after a similar timescale.

[Sergeant Wilson]

Keep the trophy and award it to the winners of an all in non league cup of everyone moves over. If a rump of juniors insist on keeping it, let them and move on.

[Shannon]

I am sure a number of former East Region Junior teams such as Bo'ness, Linlithgow Rose, Camelon would love to be involved in a revamped Scottish Junior Cup for all clubs in tier 6 and below and even tier 5 clubs too if they wanted to be involved. It could be a brilliant competition if Junior and Senior officials could actually agree on something but I am highly sceptical they could.

[Footballfirst]

16 minutes ago, Burnie_man said:

The Scottish Football League ceased to exist after a similar timescale.

I don't think that the comparison is fair one.  The SL evolved following the breakaway of the SPL in 1998(?) and it continued as the SFL until the two organisations merged as the SPFL in 2013. The competing clubs have largely maintained their status throughout and only in recent years have we seen new clubs enter as the league expanded to 42, then opened itself up to the possibility of promotion/relegation to/from the league.

Edited February 6, 2020 by Footballfirst

[PastyMan]

7 minutes ago, Sergeant Wilson said:

Keep the trophy and award it to the winners of an all in non league cup of everyone moves over. If a rump of juniors insist on keeping it, let them and move on.

I'm with you on this one Wilson. I'd say there's a place for it as the premier non league cup competition once all clubs are within the pyramid. There's a lack of room for compromise and consensus in this issue and folks end up too polarised. Both the trophy, even the title, would be a recognition of the heritage and tradition of many clubs involved in the pyramid.